For what it's worth

[ubervamp]

(First off - no offence intended to anyone
You all know how much I am indebted to the members of this forum for their kind help over the years, and how much I value and appreciate that. Please, just consider this an abstraction )

I've noticed that every so often a (usually) new member asks the question “what is this badge worth”. And that sooner or later someone will invariably reply “it's worth what someone is willing to pay for it”. I don't disagree with the statement/attitude that something is worth "what someone is willing to pay". Logic tells us that's obviously true. But at the same time that becomes so arbitrary that embracing it to it's full extent means putting a price on anything becomes impossible.

I'm not talking about extremely rare items as in those cases the sentiment holds true, as there is little else to compare it too, sale-wise, and buyers are often willing to pay a lot for the item. No, I'm talking about badges that are quite common. Also, in lack of any information to the contrary, we will have to assume it is of “standard condition” with slider/lugs intact, not missing bits, etc.

"What someone is willing to pay" for a certain item will be subject to constant change, so maybe it would have been more correct to ask “what do similar badges usually sell for?”. And to most people it's the same question. It's not about semantics, it's not a philosophical question, it's about generalization. And knowing the average such badges sell for. "what is someone is ON AVERAGE willing to pay"? If someone buys a very nice Liverpool Pals for £10, chances are you would think “that was cheap”. If they paid £100 for a bog standard Devonshire you would probably think “that was a lot to pay”, or maybe even “you’ve been had”. In other words we, by experience, know what certain badges USUALLY go for. If someone pays 10 times that, we know they paid over average.

As stated, I don't in principle disagree with the statement that something is worth "what someone is willing to pay". But, it's only really true in the meaning that THAT particular badge, at THAT particular time to THAT particular person was worth whatever they were willing to pay. But to view every individual transaction of similar badges as separate value statements is to ignore the trend which gives a GENERAL INDICATION of what certain badges usually sell for. An average.
And that's what people asking about value want to know.
When a seasoned eBay seller puts a price on a badge they choose a price which reflects what similar badges have sold for in the past. i.e. what people IN GENERAL are willing to pay for such a badge. Pointing out that a similar badge yesterday sold for 10 times what the seller is currently asking will probably not make them adjust their asking price accordingly. Why? Because they know the AVERAGE people are willing to pay. This must be considered a TYPICAL price, and therefore a TYPICAL VALUE.
So when some asks what a WW1-era garden variety Devonshire badge is worth, I'm sure many collectors will automatically assume a value of maybe £7-12 give or take. I don't think many would think “well – it could be worth £1000 to the right buyer”. In theory it could be, but obviously the question was meant to reveal the average going price.

If the attitude that every purchase is to be valued on it's own terms, i.e. what the buyer was willing to pay, then it follows that every value statement like “it was a bargain”, “I paid too much” etc, becomes completely meaningless. It was worth what is was worth when purchased. Neither more or less. Also, if I buy a badge today for £10 and sell it tomorrow for £20 does that mean it has become more valuable overnight? Only in the sense that THAT particular badge found a buyer willing to pay double what I did. But a quick check on eBay shows that the last 100 similar badges sold for approx £10. So my badge is worth twice what all other similar badges are worth? Of course not. It just means that my badge sold for that. It sold OVER average. I'm sure the buyer would kick themselves when seeing they paid double.

To sum up: to some extent there is a general consensus on what certain badges are worth, based on what they sell for on average. To ignore that seems a bit arrogant to me?

OK, I'll get off my hobby horse here.

If anyone has bothered to read this far – I'd be happy to hear your opinions on this.

Then again, maybe it's just a brain fart on my behalf.

ps. Moderators – feel free to move this to “Off Topic”

[Charliedog012012]

Your post seems to take a philosophical viewpoint of an abstract concept. For example, if someone asks, "how much is a badge worth?", then that is not easy to answer. It perhaps would be better to say for example, "I wish to sell this badge....what is a fair price range to ask? ...or what price range would I realistically expect to achieve?" Similarly if buying one might ask "what would I expect to pay on average for a badge in good condition? ...or what would you consider is a fair price to pay?" The advice offered would then focus on factors such as rarity, condition, historical context etc.
When we say someone will pay what they think it is worth, then it becomes heavily related to emotions or historical connection or rarity. For example, a trio of WW1 medals on average may fetch £60 - £100 say......if the recipient died on 1st July 1916, then the price rises dramatically. The term 'worth' does not represent monetary value.... If I could find my great uncles WW1 medals, I would pay way above their monetary value to make sure I got them and consider it 'worth it' because of sentimental connection. We have to be very careful with 'what they think it is worth' because this depends very much on the individual and his reasons for purchasing and has little to do with rarity. As I say, a very philosophical argument could be developed.

[ubervamp]

Originally Posted by Charliedog012012

Your post seems to take a philosophical viewpoint of an abstract concept. For example, if someone asks, "how much is a badge worth?", then that is not easy to answer. It perhaps would be better to say for example, "I wish to sell this badge....what is a fair price range to ask? ...or what price range would I realistically expect to achieve?" Similarly if buying one might ask "what would I expect to pay on average for a badge in good condition? ...or what would you consider is a fair price to pay?" The advice offered would then focus on factors such as rarity, condition, historical context etc.

James

My point exactly. When someone asks "how much is this badge worth" that is what is meant. They are asking what this badge USUALLY sells for. To reply that it MIGHT be worth 10 times to a particular person is neither here nor there. A litre of water might be worth a million pounds to a person dying of thirst. My point is that usually when people ask this question it could be substituted with "what does this kind of badge usually fetch?"

[/QUOTE]When we say someone will pay what they think it is worth, then it becomes heavily related to emotions or historical connection or rarity. For example, a trio of WW1 medals on average may fetch £60 - £100 say......if the recipient died on 1st July 1916, then the price rises dramatically. The term 'worth' does not represent monetary value.... If I could find my great uncles WW1 medals, I would pay way above their monetary value to make sure I got them and consider it 'worth it' because of sentimental connection. We have to be very careful with 'what they think it is worth' because this depends very much on the individual and his reasons for purchasing and has little to do with rarity. As I say, a very philosophical argument could be developed.[/QUOTE]

For the purposes I mentioned, "worth" means "what do they normally sell for". I might be right in thinking that you would pay more for your great uncles medals than another soldiers medals. But when we consider what trio's usually fetch, that has to be what we consider their normal value? That you would pay more than average for your great uncles medals means just that. That THOSE particular medals are worth that to YOU. But when someone queries the "value" of a trio they mean what they normally go for.
I think it's fair to say that the average price a trio gets represents their common value.

[ubervamp]

My whole point was that when someone asks what a badge is worth they normally mean "what does is usually sell for?". They don't mean "if I happened upon the right person with very deep pockets who wanted THIS particular badge what could I get?"
My point is that it's NOT a philosophical question that is being asked. It's a very straightforward, mundane question. My beef is with those that ignore this and state the obvious; that it could POTENTIALLY be worth millions. To a certain buyer at a certain time.
It's pretentious and a cop out.
Because like it or not, a bog standard WW1-era Devonshire will AVERAGE a price of £12 on eBAY (Yes, I've done the math - check it out if you don't believe me)
I would gladly pay £1000 for a Artists badge I knew belonged to my great uncle.
But when a poor sod asks how much his Artists is worth I would never say "maybe up to a £1000." I would say "they usually go for £18".
If not it becomes ludicrous.
I have a Suffolk badge I want to sell. How should I price it? I don't want to start at £8 because there MIGHT be someone who would pay £800?
I go to to eBay, check what they are selling for and price accordingly.
To say "it's worth whatever" is to miss the point of the query. And arrogant.

[Ian B]

Colin,

I believe you make some very valid points. I, too, get annoyed when a question of "value" or "worth" is asked and nobody seems to want to give a hard-and fast answer. Now, I don't know if the reason for this is that people have been burned before, or that they are afraid if they quote a price, someone else will come along and slag them for being a numpty.

I'll preface my next remarks with the caveat "there's exceptions to every rule" and "all generalities are false, including this one". What I would like to see is the gents on this forum giving a reasonable price range, a "no more, no less" price. Bargains do exist and we've all found them, or what one wouldn't give a farthing for, another would sell the their first-born male child for. For a particular badge, based on recent activity, what you probably won't pay less than; and what you shouldn't pay more than.

My thoughts on the matter, anyway.

Colin, I'll finish by saying you've got my vote in the next election. Stay safe and have fun. Remember the serenity prayer.

Cheers,

Ian

[Chipper]

I get what you mean Colin. Sometimes we (as in humans) love to over complicate things. "what-if" scenarios can have us running in circles forever. I think also part of the problem is the perception, real or imagined, that the forum is being used as a free valuation service. Personally, I don't have a problem with that, but understand why some people may.

So - I agree, all things being equal, if someone asks the question, they (especially new members) should get an un-sarcastic and helpful response. Forums need new members to remain fresh, and turning people away with caustic responses to what may (and agreed, also may not) be simple learning queries, is not in anyone's interest.

Intention is a big part, so if someone asks the question, a nice reply as to why they would like to know may turn the discussion into a pleasant experience for all.

Tim

[Peter Brydon]

One only needs to look at the guide prices offered in a lot of auction catalogues by even some of the auction houses who know what they are doing to appreciate how difficult it can be to put an accurate value on an item. Guide prices can cover a very wide range and then often the price achieved will be two or three times the guide price.

Funnily enough I was only thinking the other day that a lot of E bayers start their auctions at a figure that they would be lucky to achieve as a final price.

Rather like the problem with dud badges, the answer is research, you can do it yourself ( research values ) or see if someone on the Forum will do it for you.

P.B.

[Advsmt]

I think you are absolutely spot on. Everyone knows what the guy asking the question really wants to know and as Peter says a small amount of research would probably illicit the answer. However, anyone with something to sell, especially a niche item like a badge, harbours the hope that it might be some rare variation and he also wants the experts to tell him if that is the case.
Looking at the volume of badges sold on eBay alone I think it would be fair to say that it is only a very insignificant number that go to knowledgable collectors and only a tiny proportion of the one off buyers who ask a question on this site. But on the other hand of the badges sold on eBay I think the vast majority are peddled by people who know they are fakes and not joe blogs who is selling genuine family badges. Its a mine field for Joe Blogs let alone a new collector, so people need to be cut a bit of slack.

Good thread.

Bryan

[FMT600]

I think that Peter in the context he talks about has hit the nail on the head here, if people want to know what an average price is for a badge, get researching it (like I do) they should not really expect someone else who has spent a lot of time trawling through past auction results, ebay listings and almost every dealers site on the planet thus spending a lot of time and effort to freely provide that information on a public forum.

I know the above does not give an answer to the original post but from my perspective as one of those who spends hours researching I'm in no rush to throw masses of prices about on a public Forum where some people give a lot less to the Forum than others, I of course have no objection in advising people I know or actually contribute in some way to the Forum on prices when they PM or email me.

It's also important to realise that people have different perceptions on pricing as touched upon earlier in this thread on more than one occasion, this could be interpreted as something that somewhat makes a nonsense of the concept of their being an average or fair price, bargain or ripped off and takes thing full circle back to dare I say it, ''its only worth what someone is prepared to pay for it''.

Many will know I also sell badges to fund my own collection, this in itself is not as easy as many may think, to make a profit (to put in to my own badge collection fund) I of course have to be able to both source the badge at the right price and be able to sell it, simply the difference between what I buy and sell (less overheads like envelopes, packaging material, petrol and postage) is what I make. As I manage to achieve making a profit to some degree or other illustrates my point well about different perceptions as someone has sold me a badge at a price they were happy with and I have sold it on to someone else at a higher price that they were also happy with.

Here on the Forum some choose to buy from me and some don't (or ask me if I can lower the price) which shows that here on the Forum there are people with different ''what its worth'' perceptions, bearing in mind I price the badges I offer here on extensive research I have carried out and whilst I have no intention of almost giving badges away I can assure all that in virtually all cases they are cheaper than I have found others currently selling at or have been previously sold for.

If you have managed to read this far may I thank you and I hope that its made some sense.

Kind Regards,

FMT600

[Alan O]

All fair points. Having watched Bosley's on-line auction yesterday so badges were sold for what I would also describe as 'typical' prices. However there were a few badges that went for well over what I would expect to pay even at a dealer's price let alone on ebay or the like. Some of the OTC went for high prices for example as did the supposed 'all brass' RDF badge - I hope not to a Forum member!

For those interested:

http://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/au...-id-srbos10013

Lot 399's Eastborne CCF cap badge price of £120 defies belief!

[Advsmt]

I think that Alan has made a very good point. Some badges are "uncommon" and some down right rare. What is the right price then? As FMT600 points out knowing prices, or what you could get for a badge is very important if you are funding your collection. Even in my very short period of time collecting I know, to some extent, the rarity of some of the badges I want. So when one does come up, what is the going rate? Well that goes out the window if you can afford it! And if two people want it they will pay crazy prices, or they are crazy to the person who does not want it. I'm sure every Bosley's auction has crazy prices. To me a crazy price is paying for something that could be got elsewhere, with a little bit of research.

Bryan

[Advsmt]

Forgot to ask in my past post about provenance and price. Bosley's, to name but one, sell off well known and respected collectors collections. I often see on dealer sites a badge described as "ex so and so collection". Does that add value to a badge? Especially a badge that is controversial in terms of being "real" so that might tempt you to pay more or be swayed to buy it? Allied to that if you do buy an ex-collection badge do you ask for proof? If it appeared in a book would that make a difference to you?

Bryan

[Alan O]

I suspect that the provenance of being from so-and-so's collection inflates the price. I do wonder whether people consider that well known collectors may have owned the odd old restrike as a gap filler or reference piece that they knew was not genuine but was still part of the 'collection'.

Just how much having Hugh King's provenance adds to a price I don't know but it probably does. For example I was interested in the VB Hants badge but it went for £100. Add buyer's premium+ VAT and postage then you are not going to get much change from £130.

http://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/au...a-a60100a7d18a

Far more than I was prepared to pay especially with this one priced at £18 that was sold on the same day as the auction. The lugs may well have been replaced and its a bit polished but its from the same die as the Hugh King one imo.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ROYAL-HAMP...vip=true&rt=nc

So what's the going rate £130 or £18!

[ubervamp]

Good posts and valid points made so far!

Obviously when it comes to rare badges, it's not possible to talk of a "typical" price, as there aren't that many being sold, and those that are will be very coveted.
To speak of a "going rate" you need to have data from many transactions to be able
to speak of a "typical going rate".
Nor did I mean to imply that members should share their knowledge of the market to every query which could easily be deduced by the person asking by digging around a bit.
It was just the use of "what's someone's willing to pay" as a catch-all for queries regarding common badges.

[Peter Brydon]

There is a hall marked silver Liverpool Pals cap badge ( albeit brooched ) finishing shortly on E bay:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3914571323...84.m1436.l2649

Always interesting to see what these go for, but in the light of this thread it will be interesting to see how the price compares with the one sold yesterday at Bosleys ( £120 plus commission for Chester Hall marked example )

P.B.