Grenadier and Fusilier badges

[Bill A]

A question about grenadier and fusiler badges. In my understanding, the number of flames / flame tips on a badge was unique to that regiment. So, if you were a Grenadier Guard, there was always a fixed number of flame tips. (For example, the flames on the RE and RA collars were 9 and 7?)
Does this hold true? And if so, what are the numbers for specific regiments?
Eg the Grenadier Guards, London Fusiliers, etc?

[Mike]

doesn't apply to some Northumberland Fusiliers anyway

here are two with 19 and 18 flames, there is also a 17 flame version OSD of this badge
which I am missing (anyone? £15 paid)

[Alan O]

Grenadier Guards can come with 16 or 17 flame tips as well.

Alan

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Bill A

what are the numbers for specific regiments?
Eg the Grenadier Guards, London Fusiliers, etc?

I served in the Royal Welch Fusiliers (the old 23rd Regt of Foot) for 12 years (1972-1984) and the ORs badge had always had 23 flame tips for all 3 versions of the badge ever issued (bi/m Welsh, bi/m Welch and aa Welch). The officers SD version (bronze) had 18. An embroidered cloth badge in gilt wire that was worn by officers and WOs in berets only had 7 flame tips (on outer edge). It is important to qualify 'flame tips' as some badges had an inner bank of flames that did not extend to the outer part of the badge. There was also an earlier pattern officers SD badge (in WW1) that appeared to use the same grenade as used by the Northumberland Fusiliers and possibly Munster and Inniskilling for their officers SD. I suspect this was a case of sheer pragmatism by the badge manufacturer that was not protested by the regiment on the basis that in the middle of a war a 'modified' version of the badge was better than no badge. This latter version can be seen as fellow member 'Bantams' avatar.

[Luke H]

All the BM Royal Munster Fusiliers and Inniskilling fusiliers I've seen come with 19 flames except the all brass economy issues (genuine ones) which appear to have one less flame, making 18.

Luke

[Bantam]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

I served in the Royal Welch Fusiliers (the old 23rd Regt of Foot) for 15 years (1972-1984) and the ORs badge had always had 23 flame tips for all 3 versions of the badge ever issued (bi/m Welsh, bi/m Welch and aa Welch). The officers SD version (bronze) had 18. An embroidered cloth badge in gilt wire that was worn by officers and WOs in berets only had 7 flame tips (on outer edge). It is important to qualify 'flame tips' as some badges had an inner bank of flames that did not extend to the outer part of the badge. There was also an earlier pattern officers SD badge (in WW1) that appeared to use the same grenade as used by the Northumberland Fusiliers and possibly Munster and Inniskilling for their officers SD. I suspect this was a case of sheer pragmatism by the badge manufacturer that was not protested by the regiment on the basis that in the middle of a war a 'modified' version of the badge was better than no badge. This latter version can be seen as fellow member 'Bantams' avatar.

Hi Toby,
Reading this thread when I came across you mentioning my avitar I have both versions SH and CH spellings.I wondered if they may have been worn by the officers of the territorial battalions of the regiment.I have seen a photo of Siegfried "Mad Jack" Sassoon wearing the badge.
Regards
Bantam

[Bantam]

Hi,
Decided to post photo of both versions.
Regards
Bantam

[54Bty]

Originally Posted by Bill A

A question about grenadier and fusiler badges. In my understanding, the number of flames / flame tips on a badge was unique to that regiment. So, if you were a Grenadier Guard, there was always a fixed number of flame tips. (For example, the flames on the RE and RA collars were 7 and 9?)
Does this hold true? And if so, what are the numbers for specific regiments?
Eg the Grenadier Guards, London Fusiliers, etc?

I know you know and have just typed them the wrong way round, but, RE collar badges have 9 flames (7 points) and the RA have 7 flames (7 points).

[Bill A]

Good catch 54 Bty, dyslexic fingers.

[fougasse1940]

Originally Posted by 54Bty

I know you know and have just typed them the wrong way round, but, RE collar badges have 9 flames (7 points) and the RA have 7 flames (7 points).

RE with ten flames also exist.

Cheers, fougasse1940

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Bantam

Hi,
Decided to post photo of both versions.
Regards
Bantam

Sorry for delay in replying Bantam (I have been overseas for 6 weeks on duty). In answer to your query I do not know if it was just the TF that wore the modified Bronze SD badge, nor do I know when the standard pattern was reintroduced as the only one to be worn. Also, Mad Jack was in a Service Battalion rather than a TF one and it seems more likley that the greater numbers there led to the pragmatism I spoke of. I imagine it might have been between the two World Wars as I do not recall ever seeing the modified badge being worn in WW2 photos.

[grumpy]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

Sorry for delay in replying Bantam (I have been overseas for 6 weeks on duty). In answer to your query I do not know if it was just the TF that wore the modified Bronze SD badge, nor do I know when the standard pattern was reintroduced as the only one to be worn. Also, Mad Jack was in a Service Battalion rather than a TF one and it seems more likley that the greater numbers there led to the pragmatism I spoke of. I imagine it might have been between the two World Wars as I do not recall ever seeing the modified badge being worn in WW2 photos.

Sasson served with 1st RWF [nickname and MC], 2nd RWF, and later the 25th, not a Service Battalion but the converted old Montgomery and Welsh Horse Yeomanry. The two regular battalions didn't do pragmatism, as the senior [and only Royal] Welsh regiment.
He was a RWF Special Reserve Officer from 1915, having been commissioned out of the Sussex Yeomanry.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grumpy

Sasson served with 1st RWF [nickname and MC], 2nd RWF, and later the 25th, not a Service Battalion but the converted old Montgomery and Welsh Horse Yeomanry. The two regular battalions didn't do pragmatism, as the senior [and only Royal] Welsh regiment.
He was a RWF Special Reserve Officer from 1915, having been commissioned out of the Sussex Yeomanry.

Hi Grumpy, we know each other from another site. I was referring to his 'stint' with the 25th Batt, which I had thought was a Service Battalion, but I guess the 2 yeomanry regiments hailed from the TF, thus making the 25th Batt Territorials. If so, I stand corrected.

I do not agree about your comments re pragmatism of the regiment though, and the short-term variant badges (and my personal experience within the regt) would bear this out.

[2747andy]

With the Grenadier Guards, I think it is just a makers variation, with no specific meaning!

See my album, when they go live again!

Andy

[Bill A]

Just reading the RCOC stores catalogue 1953 ish, and the Canadian Grenadier Guards cap badge is described as "a bursting grenade with 17 pointed flame, the Fusiliers Mont Royal, a grenade with a flame of 12 points, the Princess Louise Fusiliers, a grenade with 19 pointed flame, and the Winnipeg Grenadiers, a grenade with 18 pointed flames.