KOSB - QVC

[aramsay]

Picked this up recently, and would appreciate opinions on it's authenticity.

Also, I have noticed that some KOSB badges have long St.Andrews Cross legs (like my one), and some are much shorter (almost at the perimeter of the main badge). Is there any significance on this feature over the life of the design of this badge ?

72mm overall height / 52mm width

[IMG] Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/IMG]

[IMG] Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/IMG]

[JimD]

Looks good to me.....

Cheers
Jim

[fougasse1940]

Closest match in Bloomer 1 is 88: "The King's Own Scottish Borderers, O/R's, post 1952, QC, wm.
The difference in size of the St. Andrews cross is due to different makers.

Rgds,

Thomas.

[Fatherofthree]

Is it not Bloomer 82. KOSB Other Ranks, 1887 - 1902.

It has a QVC.

Regards
Brian

[aramsay]

I'd say it is closest to Bloomer 82 as well, but the length of the legs of the St.Andrews cross is different, hence why I was also asking about these differences in original post.

What size is a helmet plate centre, as per Bloomer 79/80/81 ?

Slainte, Alan.

[2747andy]

Alan,
I have a badge just like the one you show, mine I'm pretty certain is fake/a copy! The HPC would have brass loops by the way.

The reason I think it's a ringer is that it has too many windows/arrow ports! Plus the lion resembles my ex-mother in law. The font is poorly defined and crooked and the overall detail poor and flat when compared to an original! It could be a makers variation but I seriously doubt it!

I believe whichever faker made the die for this copy, they used a silver/silver plate officers badge as a guide, they do have the extra windows on the walls between the towers along with fretted lettering.

I've shown a genuine QVC badge next to what I beleive to be a fake and also a S.Plate QE2 Officers badge.

Best regards

Andy

[Leonard D]

Andy, have one that is similar but smaller by 2mm in both dimensions than the one first pictured. Will get some images uploaded for critique.
Cheers.
Len.

[fougasse1940]

Bloomer 88 was based on the shape of the "Dominus" scroll, which differs from 82.

Rgds,

Thomas.

[Leonard D]

Andy, herewith images of the KOSB. There are some similarities. Font, lions face and arrow ports. Note the difference in the style of crown and lions tail.
The badge measures 70mm (NS) and 50mm (EW) The arms of the cross 63mm long measured from the centres. Would be interested in any thoughts forum members may have on this one.
Cheers!
Len.

[2747andy]

Len,
I'm afraid it's the ex-mother in law again!

A repro IMO!

Andy

[Leonard D]

Andy, cheers for that. Into the old biscuit box it goes!
The search for a replacement begins.
Len.

[KLR]

Why can't the number of windows be a manufacturer's variation !? I'm not a KOSB collector but the construction and patina look perfectly OK to me. Pattern 2076/1889 - superseded by 2076A in May1903 (smaller and with KC). The WO stopped using 'brass' in 1897 in favour of GM so this one might just date to the last six years if that went for fittings as well as actual badges !?

[Mike]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Alan,
I have a badge just like the one you show, mine I'm pretty certain is fake/a copy! The HPC would have brass loops by the way.

The reason I think it's a ringer is that it has too many windows/arrow ports! Plus the lion resembles my ex-mother in law. The font is poorly defined and crooked and the overall detail poor and flat when compared to an original! It could be a makers variation but I seriously doubt it!

I believe whichever faker made the die for this copy, they used a silver/silver plate officers badge as a guide, they do have the extra windows on the walls between the towers along with fretted lettering.

I've shown a genuine QVC badge next to what I beleive to be a fake and also a S.Plate QE2 Officers badge.

Best regards

Andy

Those letters with a flat surface on these older badges are a good sign to me. The repro merchants must have difficulty recreating that aspect of the badge. Just look at that badge on the right the regiment's title just jumps out at you.


Andy's image:

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by KLR

Why can't the number of windows be a manufacturer's variation !? I'm not a KOSB collector but the construction and patina look perfectly OK to me. Pattern 2076/1889 - superseded by 2076A in May1903 (smaller and with KC). The WO stopped using 'brass' in 1897 in favour of GM so this one might just date to the last six years if that went for fittings as well as actual badges !?

Julian,
good morning to you! This is where experience has to go hand in hand with research! If you look through Bloomers and other publications you will see that the OR's badges do not have the extra windows, however Officers badges although still made to a pattern were often made in much smaller numbers and by several (?) manufacturers and a little artistic license may have crept in! However the ORs pattern would have been more rigid, and unlike "DIY SOS" you could not bung in an extra window or two here and there.

Although Alan and Len's badges look old, they are probably nowhere near a product of the late 1800's? It is IMO that they are fake and I've seen enough of them to be able to say that with a fair amount of confidence! Here's another up for sale right now!

The construction is awful, the font, the Lion's features and the thistle leaves and the patina may look OK but it is probably the result of a few decades of age and not a century?

Best regards

Andy

[KLR]

Andy, I respect your opinions and I'm sure you've seen more KOSB badges than I have. However, I may say that I have 35 different examples of what the WO designated Pattern 4362A/1896, OR's KLR cap badge (as well as three 'theatre made' cast ones). I regard all except one as genuine (and I'm not certain about that one). The same designation being used on WO orders and various manufacturers tenders. Most of the original 'Sealed Patterns' for cap (and other) badges are held at the NAM and/or the IWM.
I'll stop giving opinions on other badges and stick to KLR ones.
J