The ''triple fern'' badge mystery

[pukman]

Having done a bit of research previously on the mysterious ''triple fern '' badge,I came across this real photo postcard yesterday which has made me revisit this subject.

I have to admit i don't own the badge itself,but through looking through period newspapers i have come across a few examples of this exceedlingly rare badge being worn.The triple fern badge has always been portrayed in reference books and early photographed badge collections as being worn by members of the 1st,2nd,and 3rd reinforcements 1st NZEF.This is clearly not the case however as the few pictures i have come across show them worn by later reinforcements.

This picture was unidentified ,but in my archives i managed to match to a J Dougherty ,wounded.Now it could be one of two soldiers (possibly brothers).Private ,later Lance Corporal John Dougherty,10/2591 6th reinforcements .Served on Galliopli from the 5th November 1915 untill evacuation.Wounded at the Somme ,and servervely 26th July 1917.From Alexandra ,Central Otago.

The second possibity is Private James Augustine Dougherty ,8/3448a ,8th reinforcements ,wounded on 25/7/1916,also from Alexandra ,Central Otago.

Interseting enough is that both these soldiers are infantry men.Note the straight NZR shoulder title on his felt hat to go with the curved examples on his shoulders.

[pukman]

Trooper Robert Scott 9/1353 ,6th reinforcements,Otago Mounted Rifles .

Trooper James McMillan 7/1322 6th reinforcements Canterbury mounted rifles

Trooper T J McCarthy 7th Otago Mounted rifles


Unidentified(M Pomeroy collection)

[pukman]

Now I'm sorry for the picture quality lads,but thats about as good as it gets I'm afraid.All off the portraits look as though they have the uber rare scrolled variety of this badge.What does this tell us?

Was the scroll less variety with the superimposed ,1,2 and 3 ever worn?

Was the scroll less variety with the 1,2 ,3 superimposed made for a collector market during WW1 ,by entrepreneurial camp Jewellers?

[stevjp]

Hello Iain,
Fantastic photo's and research.
Attached is a rather dark picture of a Triple fern with the three country motto to bottom scroll ("England", "France", "Russia"). Reference books (Geoff Lowe's - New Zealand Reinforcement Badges 1914-1918) also talk about a badge with "Reinforcement" to bottom scroll (I don't have a picture/example - in fact the picture is off a collection which appeared on e-bay back in Jan 2010, it was hidden on the sellers photo's by another badge, so I asked the seller to confirm/photo what it was. In the end the collection went far beyond my means, so maybe the new owner will furnish us with a better picture ).
Second photo is of my triple ferns, without bottom scroll. The number 3 is silver plated brass (but has lugs to back).
Finally, with the other photo (again from Geoff Lowe's above mentioned book - Page 53) just want to draw your attentions to a collection Brent has also mentioned a couple of times in another thread, which is that of Colonel H.R. Potter - the Trentham Camp Commandant. If the triple fern badge without scroll was a sweethearts or souvenir badge, why does it feature so prominently in the Colonel's collection. Surely they would have been discounted as such and not been on his display (looking at the rather grainy image, the Colonel seems to have ensured that he collected a true representation of the Reinforcement drafts).
Its good to have these debates, please keep it going...
Best Regards
James...

[pukman]

Hello James ,
thanks for you photo's and comments.I'm sure Brent will have a few observations to add.

There are two known New Zealand WW1 era badge collections photographed at that time.Firstly by Elden Neill in May 1917 and Colonel Potter ,Commandant of Trentham camp.These have shaped the modern thinking of badge collecting,as well as influenced the modern badge reference books.Its interesting to know that even at an early stage ,people were chronicling badges for prosperity.However it comes down to a few facts.

(1) There is no photographic evidence of 1st,2nd and 3rd reinforcements wearing reinforcement badges

(2) Camp jewellers were not operating in camps until the middle of the 4th reinforcements tenure.

(3) Known photographs have the triple fern badges worn by 6th ,7th and 8th reinforcements.Most of the portraits have the badges as being the rarer scrolled version,and although not conclusive due the the image quality ,none appear to have a numeral superimposed.

I think this is an important debate,as there is onus on modern researchers to add to what has already been chronicled,and add ,inhance or change to what has been already written

This next statement is purely for debate.

Did the WW1 period photographed collections have an influence on our modern day thinking ,and was it possible the Jewellers altered badges to fill the void left ,as there is no 1st,2nd and 3rd reinforcement badges,and these badges are in fact fantasy badges made to fill that void ,for the early collector market?

We may find in the future that the 1st,2nd and 3rd superimposed badges may have been worn and desinated to a later reinforcement .I will keep searching.

A future publication by Phil Beattie may uncover a few clues for us badge detectives.The first volume has over 4000 NZEF soldier portaits.

(1)Private R Stubbs,Wellington Infantry ,7th reinforcements.

(2) An up close image of the Matt Pomeroy owned portrait (post 2),with the scroll less,number less triple fern badge.Unfortunately this soldier is unidentified

[pukman]

Trooper,later Sergeant Stanley Kay,Otago Mounted rifles,8th reinforcements

[atillathenunns]

Hmmmmmmm, the old triple fern debate, which of course Puk has full bragging rights as he was the first to find a triple fern badge photo.

http://militarianz.freeforums.org/tr...ent-t1713.html

However, it has been 3 years since I offered up my triple fern theories on the MilitariaNZ forum, and as far as I know, no one is willing to debate it with me.

But to be honest, my research on the subject is much more advanced than it was back then, and I have been ready to tell the story of how NZ reinforcement badges came into being, and who the main players were, for over a year now.

3 years ago, we learnt from Craig hooper that all the triple fern badges were made by C. M. Bay, who was a Jeweller and badge maker located at 66 Willis Street in Wellington.
Today I can not only tell you which camp jeweller authorised Bay to make the tripple fern badges, but I believe I can also tell you which person was the designer of the triple fern badge.

Now the question why I haven't posted my NZ reinforcement badge story yet, really comes down to finding the time to write it all up.
Plus it would be nice to complete my reinforcement (6th and 7th hat badges needed) badge collection before posting my information.

The following photos are all from Craig Hoopers collection.

1st Pattern (Triple Entente) Triple Fern badges, worn 6th to 8th Reinforcements.
(Although difficult to see, the date 1914 is above the 'EN' of England scroll)



2nd Pattern Triple Fern badges, made from the same dies as the 1st Pattern, worn by 6th to 8th Reinforcements.



3rd Pattern Triple Fern badges, made from the same dies as the 1st Pattern, supplied to collectors market only.



4th Pattern Triple Fern badges, most likely only worn by veterans who were members of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Reinforcements, or possibly may have only been supplied to collectors market only. (Available in brass and silver and with or without “NZ” lettering)

[pukman]

Brent,I would imagine that any one with a vested interest would not like to debate the issue.There have been a few sold for good money over the years,and a few in collections that are gathering dust.

This in clearly a case of a incorrect history lesson that has ben perpetuiated in recent times by reference books.Look.i can't fault people ,even the so called badge guru's .It was a difficult assignment to uncover one picture little alone several.Let's hope the research is not in vain.

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by pukman

Brent,I would imagine that any one with a vested interest would not like to debate the issue.There have been a few sold for good money over the years,and a few in collections that are gathering dust.

This in clearly a case of a incorrect history lesson that has ben perpetuiated in recent times by reference books.Look.i can't fault people ,even the so called badge guru's .It was a difficult assignment to uncover one picture little alone several.Let's hope the research is not in vain.

A bit of a slow reply, but I wanted to show my one and only triple fern badge that is, as you say, gathering dust. I purchased it off Craig Hooper about 6 years ago.



Was the triple fern research in vain?
Well Geoff Oldhams 2011 price book, page 35, has mentioned the very photos that were posted on the MilitariaNZ thread, so no, I don't think it was in vain.

How many triple fern badges are out there?
To get some idea-
PLEASE POST YOUR TRIPLE FERN BADGES ON THIS THREAD

[pukman]

Originally Posted by atillathenunns

A bit of a slow reply, but I wanted to show my one and only triple fern badge that is, as you say, gathering dust. I purchased it off Craig Hooper about 6 years ago.



Was the triple fern research in vain?
Well Geoff Oldhams 2011 price book, page 35, has mentioned the very photos that were posted on the MilitariaNZ thread, so no, I don't think it was in vain.

How many triple fern badges are out there?
To get some idea-
PLEASE POST YOUR TRIPLE FERN BADGES ON THIS THREAD

Oldhams write up of the ''Triple fern pattern'',is an improvement from previous badge reference books ,but is still a little ambiguous for my liking.Maybe edition 4 should read ,4/1 ,4/3,4/4 No,1,2,3 ,Triple fern badge ,made for collector market,not actually worn .


Now how does this alter the thinking of the average badge collector,does it make the badge more or less collectable?

[Tinto]

Hi Chaps,
Here is my Triple Fern, third pattern. Note that numeral 1 is different from that shown by Brent.
Cheers, Tinto

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by pukman

Oldhams write up of the ''Triple fern pattern'',is an improvement from previous badge reference books ,but is still a little ambiguous for my liking.Maybe edition 4 should read ,4/1 ,4/3,4/4 No,1,2,3 ,Triple fern badge ,made for collector market,not actually worn .

Now how does this alter the thinking of the average badge collector,does it make the badge more or less collectable?

The 3rd Pattern Triple Fern badges are an important part of New Zealand Reinforcement badge history, they are just as collectable now as they were in 1917.

Tinto, your 3rd Pattern variation is one that I have not seen before.
To be honest it looks like the letter I to me (I Squadron, 6th Reinforcements?)
Is it brass and does it have the hex lugs?

[Tinto]

Hi Brent,
Yes, my "I" badge is brass and has 2 hex lugs.
Interesting, your suggestion.
Cheers, Tinto

[pukman]

Thanks to information supplied by Phil Beattie,I have confirmed the identity of the soldier in my first post.He is in fact Lance Corporal John Dougherty ,6/2591,6th reinforcements,Wellington Infantry.
Dougherty served on Gallipoli from November 8th 1915 until evacuation.He was wounded in the thigh at the Somme ,16/9/1916,and again badly gassed on the 26/7/1917 and was invalided out of the war.He died in Clyde ,Central Otago in 1970.

One of the many unsung hero's that represented our country.

As an aside ,Phil Beattie is publishing volumes of 1st NZEF picture portraits,taken from period newspapers and private collections.His first volume has over 4000 identified individual portraits.These publications will be a boon for military geneaologists and i guess their will be a few gems for us badge spotters.

[pukman]

Here is some badges being offered on auction site Trade ,from a well established collection.The first two look to be relugged.There seems firm interest in them.