4th SAI 1915 - 19? - British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

iaindh · #1 17-09-11, 08:26 AM

Hi SA Gurus,

I picked up this large "Goat in the porthole" cap badge; I thought I identified it as WWI 4th SAI, Owens 1253.....

Bok 003.jpg

Bok 004.jpg

then I see Owens 2950 & 2951, both are cadets, 2950 worn 1916 - 26 and 2951 worn 1927 - 1950.
There appears to be no difference between the 3 or am I missing something?
You can see from the reverse it has a very nice maker's stamp.

Any ideas?

Iain

Traist · #2 17-09-11, 08:39 AM

The cadets were white metal, the SAI was bronze/brass. This is a general service badge, so it was worn by infantry, but also other units. I have seen photos of soldiers(SAI) in France during WW1, were you can see 3 variations of the general service badge worn by the same unit. Regards Andrew

iaindh · #3 17-09-11, 10:16 AM

Hi Andrew,

thanks for the response; so is this the 4 SAI badge, as ID'd as Owens 1253 ? And when you say a photo of 3 variations were the other 2 the cadets or do you mean 2 other different types, there being so many variations?

regards,

Iain

Alex Rice · #4 17-09-11, 10:56 AM

Howzit Iain
I haven't got my copy of Owen's handy, but the spelling of the motto should have changed from 'Eendracht Macht Magt' to 'Eendrag Maak Mag' in 1927 when the Afrikaans language was formalised from Dutch. That should be the change in the 3rd one.
Cheers,
Alex

iaindh · #5 17-09-11, 12:39 PM

Howzit Alex, and thanks for the input.

This one has "Eendracht maakt macht" which is as is in 1253 and 2950. I wasnt aware of that change which shows I must pay more attention to the Afrikaans and not take it for granted!!!!

Thanks for your help and regards,

Iain

Traist · #6 17-09-11, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iaindh

Hi Andrew,

thanks for the response; so is this the 4 SAI badge, as ID'd as Owens 1253 ? And when you say a photo of 3 variations were the other 2 the cadets or do you mean 2 other different types, there being so many variations?

regards,

Iain

Hi Iain, your picture looks like white metal. It may only be the lighting in the picture. If it is white metal, then it is cadets. If it is bronze/brass, then it is 1253. The variations are 1247, 1250, 1253, 1256 and then the line below 1259-1264. The general service badges could be worn by all. If you look in Ian Uys' books Rollcall and Delville Wood, you will see 1,2,3 and 4 SAI wearing this badge(1253). You can also see this in Digby's book Pyramids and Poppies as well as a photograph of the South African Sharpshooters wearing this badge. They were not attached to the S.A. Infantry, but were also in France. As far as I can see 1253 was commonly worn by the S.A. Infantry in France, but not only by them. Regards Andrew

iaindh · #7 17-09-11, 03:37 PM

Hi Andrew,

I'm now a little disappointed in Colin Owen's book; it was so good up to now, faultless in fact: excellent cross referencing and pictures full size, so much better than K & K, the British cap badge bible!!! But in all fairness it is a huge project, I do wish K & K was as user friendly as Owen's.
The badge is actually brass so presumably 1253, but that he should say 1253 is WWI, 4 SAI only doesn't impress me.
Please note the sizing is correct to 1253; its 47mm diameter so 1259 to 64 aren't relevant but maybe you are referring to the photo here.

But thanks Andrew, your input is as always very welcome.

regards,

Iain

Traist · #8 18-09-11, 11:08 AM

Hi Iain, thank you. Owen's book isn't perfect, and neither are any of the others that I have seen. I am sure that when my book comes out, people will point out mistakes to me too. It is however a very good contribution. I have found a few badges that are correct, but not fully, like 1253. I don't know if it was a mistake, or if it sounded better like that, but most is 100% and as I said a very useful contribution. It is dissapointing when you do find these errors. Have a grand day. Andrew

iaindh · #9 19-09-11, 03:09 AM

Hi Andrew,
I'm impressed that you are bringing out a book! What field will it cover and when will it be published?

regards,

Iain

Traist · #10 19-09-11, 05:03 AM

Hi Iain, it is called "Border War Badges". It covers South Africa, S.W.A and the Homelands, Military and Police for the period 1964-1994. There are almost 6000 photographs with descriptions. It is currently at the printer, so should be available next month. Regards Andrew

sabrigade · #11 20-09-11, 06:25 AM

I am not convinced that the white metal badge was just worn by cadets. This badge also came out in silver and some of the sets I have in my collection have included this white metal badge with the usual collar badges, dog tags and proficiency badges as worn by and associated with the SA Forces in France in WW1. It is a pity we cannot get the dress regulations as I know of at least two variations and sizes of the officer's version that was worn and used. I am also aware of at least 12 "normal" variations of the badge in my collection and there are or were possibly more variations out there.

Traist · #12 20-09-11, 06:57 AM

Hi William, I agree, It is a shame that so much was lost in the mist of time. I am happy that the white metal was worn by cadets, but we get back to "was it only worn by cadets?". I read somewhere awhile back when the cadets were ordered to no longer wear any badge but the general cadet badge, I can not remember exactly where I read it, but it did refer to the order. It is a shame that all the pictures were black and white as it makes it very difficult to try and determine the metals of the badges. If you dig up in solid info, please let me know. Regards Andrew

sabrigade · #13 20-09-11, 09:19 PM

Most senior and private cadet attachments had their own specific and unique badge. The prolific number of these badges that are available leaves many thoughts in my mind. I do not think that much was lost over time but that any "reference" guide is automatically accepted as the rule. I think your new book which focuses on a specific period will ensure both detail and accuracy and the approach is by far the best than to "cram" a very diverse range into one book.

Traist · #14 21-09-11, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sabrigade

Most senior and private cadet attachments had their own specific and unique badge. The prolific number of these badges that are available leaves many thoughts in my mind. I do not think that much was lost over time but that any "reference" guide is automatically accepted as the rule. I think your new book which focuses on a specific period will ensure both detail and accuracy and the approach is by far the best than to "cram" a very diverse range into one book.

Thank you William, that was the idea of the book. I accept that it may not be perfect, but a huge effort and thousands of hours went into it. Have a grand day. Andrew

iaindh · #15 21-09-11, 07:11 AM

Hi Andrew,
with your book, when you say description, is there also a bit of history, for example, an explanation behind a change? Its areas like this where some reference books sadly lack. Yes, the research is interesting but as pointed out, sometimes the background is obscure or lost in the mists of time and, as with this thread, can be extremely confusing.

regards,

Iain