PRE 1881 O/Rs GLENGARRY BADGES

[CftD]

Does anyone have a definitive link to the directive relating to pre 1881 other ranks' pattern glengarry badges and, in particular, the positioning of retaining lugs north and south (as opposed to east and west). It is very specifically the WO Directive reference I am looking for. Many thanks in anticipation of responses. David

[BILL DUGGAN]

The introduction to the chapter on these in Kipling & King volume 1 is informative.

Well worth reading and worth absorbing.

[Peter Brydon]

I sadly dont have a copy,but the answer might be in the book in the attached photo.

P.B.

[Charlie585]

Originally Posted by 8thfoot

I sadly dont have a copy,but the answer might be in the book in the attached photo.

P.B.

This book is high on my literary wish list and I was disappointed to miss a used copy that was being offered for sale recently.

I understand that it is the ultimate reference work on PT Glengarries and as PB states, it may and probably does contain the information you require David.

Regards to all.

Ry

[CftD]

Originally Posted by BILL DUGGAN

The introduction to the chapter on these in Kipling & King volume 1 is informative.

Well worth reading and worth absorbing.

Unfortunately, Hugh King was heavily involved in selling Fox reproductions and the impartiality of comments in K and K throws a veil over the opinion. Thank you, however, for the reference - of which I was aware. David

[CftD]

Originally Posted by 8thfoot

I sadly dont have a copy,but the answer might be in the book in the attached photo.

P.B.

Thank you Peter. David

[CftD]

I have a problem. There is much opinion regarding the positioning of lugs on P/T glengarry badges but nothing substantive to support it. If the original badges were to be mounted with lugs north and south then there must be a directive to that effect. Without it, the presumption that all east/west specimens MUST be Fox reproductions has little or no weight. I feel that the issue requires much more detailed investigation before (possibly) genuine badges are labelled reproductions simply because of lug positioning. Any contribution to the discussion would be welcome. David

[Charlie585]

Originally Posted by Counsel for the Defence

I have a problem. There is much opinion regarding the positioning of lugs on P/T glengarry badges but nothing substantive to support it. If the original badges were to be mounted with lugs north and south then there must be a directive to that effect. Without it, the presumption that all east/west specimens MUST be Fox reproductions has little or no weight. I feel that the issue requires much more detailed investigation before (possibly) genuine badges are labelled reproductions simply because of lug positioning. Any contribution to the discussion would be welcome. David

There have been several threads in the past that mention this subject David and like you I still haven't been able to grasp what is truly definitive. There is the issue of the metal from which the loops were formed as stated I believe by Jeff Mcwilliam.

I believe that fox restrikes were assumed to have Copper loops although I have spoken to dealers at length about the question of loops in general and have been told that it is often the case that other factors are more relied upon than just the fixing method.

I have to admit to having only the one PT Glengarry in my collection and the deciding factor to its heritage came down in this case to the weight of the piece.

I do hope that Jeff is able to join this discussion and is able to give pointers to the reference material that was available to him if possible, though I do assume that much of his final analysis was gained from carrying out hands on scrutiny and comparisons of the badges in question.

It may be the case that comparison against known fakes should they be identified, is now really the only true way of identifying genuine PT Glengarry badges.

As I said, I don't yet have Jeff's book so the above is only my estimation of the situation as I see it. If Jeff does have access to an official directive then all well and good. If not, as with much else in historical research it will be a case of analysing the pysical evidence that is available to us and drawing our conclusions (confirmed as they may or may not be) from it.

Regards

Ry

[wright241]

Originally Posted by 8thfoot

I sadly dont have a copy,but the answer might be in the book in the attached photo.

P.B.

Peter, I have a copy of Geoff's book and its here in front of me. However, although there is half a page on the 'Fox restrikes', I cannot see any other references to any 'official instructions' on lug positions etc.
David

[Jeff Mc William]

Hi David et al.
Re your interest in the "correct" positioning of the fixing lugs on PT glengarry badges :
As most on the forum will probably know, I have for many years now have had a particular interest in this series, of which at one time I had a half-decent collection. I also had the great priviledge of seeing many other famous collections in my travels (including that of the late, great, Hugh King) and spent many hours at the PRO (now The National Archives) searching through WO 359 and other ACD records for details of the issue etc of these fascinating devices. So I think that entitles me to an opinion relating to this subject...tho' I would not go so far as to call myself an "expert".

To my knowledge David, contrary to your view, I have yet to find any official document which specifies the correct (or required) positioning of the fixing lugs for these badges, or indeed whether they should be of brass or copper.
So far as I can see, the available records of this period simply do not go into such precise detail ! Also unfortunately it would seem the actual sealed patterns have long been discarded and no photos, or rubbings, ever appear to have been taken. In most cases even a description is invariably lacking. Further, because of this, the SP numbers allocated cannot always be definately prescribed to a certain badge, and very often have to be deduced from a previous reference.
Therefore I'm afraid there is no simple answer to your query other than to learn from the experience of those avid researchers such as Lucas, Buckle, Deare, Carman, and Hugh King whose views must surely count for something.
From previous threads you will already know my own opinion on the subject and, while I respect the views of others on this, it would take some, as yet undiscovered and indisputable official document to convince me otherwise. Regards Jeff

[CftD]

Jeff - I believe you must have mis-read my post as your view re positioning of lugs is most certainly not contrary to mine. In fact, it is the very absence of supporting documentation that brought me to re-raise the issue. I am grateful for your opinion and for the opinions of others. The over-riding point seems to be that there is NOTHING in definitive form to support or reject lug positioning in either n/s or e/w so those who condemn these badges on the basis of lug positioning have no foundation on which to do so. I also reitterate the point I made regarding glengarries in the Hugh King collection that I feel uncomfortable accepting the very brief resume of Fox specmens when he was himself selling badges with both lug configurations as genuine. Can we deduce that, perhaps, the only definitive distinction is instinct ? My sincere thanks for the learned contributions to the thread. David

[mooke07]

Another thought on this subject is not so much to do with lug positioning but perhaps the use of metal composition analysis on both lugs and glengarries. I posted a thread on the results of an if you a proof-of-concept series of tests that I did on WM and Economy issue badges. It would be technically feasible to test known Fox reproductions and known genuine glengarries and to compare a series and look for trends in lug positioning. The issue would be getting enough badges to test to make analysis statically significant.

Just a thought and thanks for an informative discussion, cheers Dean.

[Jeff Mc William]

Hi David
It looks like we are at "cross purposes" here. I was not referring to your views on the N-S/E-W positioning of the lugs, it was your presumption that there MUST be some reference to this in the ACD records. There MAY be but so far I have not seen any. Jeff

[CftD]

Dean - Hope all is well in Oz. I believe that you are right in identifying a forensic anaylsis as providing the definitive answer to this question and I think the scale of such an exercise is probably well out of the scope of any of us on the Forum - although it does stir the imagination ! Regards. David

[CftD]

Originally Posted by Jeff Mc William

Hi David
It looks like we are at "cross purposes" here. I was not referring to your views on the N-S/E-W positioning of the lugs, it was your presumption that there MUST be some reference to this in the ACD records. So far I have not seen any. Jeff

Thanks Jeff - I now read your post in context. I think Dean's views on forensic analysis are very interesting indeed and all in the name of badge collecting ! Regards. David