"Grenade Fired Proper"

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

This one Toby. What do you think ? Worsted ?

Andy

We cross posted. Yes, that is the Albert Bonnet (a field cap, not for barracks wear) that I just referred to. On Monday I will post a surviving and very rare officer version (CG), which bore bullion wire rather than metal insignia, just as today.

[grenadierguardsman]

This is one i have, what do you think. This was done under the scanner.

Andy

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

This is one i have, what do you think. This was done under the scanner.

Andy

That's a later pattern Andy, known as the 'Torin'. The original Albert Bonnet was taller and had the badge on the front and the CG had white tape edges.

[grenadierguardsman]

Are you sure ? it looks the same as the chap in the photo I've just posted. I took it to Gary Gibbs the Archivist at the Guards Museum, he says its the Albert Cap/Bonnet. Ive Got a Pic of a Coldstream Guards one but i can't post it on here.
Andy

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

Are you sure ? it looks the same as the chap in the photo I've just posted. I took it to Gary Gibbs the Archivist at the Guards Museum, he says its the Albert Cap/Bonnet. Ive Got a Pic of a Coldstream Guards one but i can't post it on here.
Andy

I know that first Albert Bonnet was taller than that and the one you have posted has dimensions and appearance the same as the Torin. I suspect that the latter evolved from the former. Here is the pattern of Albert I meant: https://www.dnw.co.uk/auction-archiv...&lot_id=201514

[grenadierguardsman]

Yes I've seen that Tent Cap before..........i don't know, but i don't reckon its to the Coldstream Guards.
Andy

[grenadierguardsman]

I reckon its got an Indian style to it, I've see something similar on Pinterest.
Andy

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

Yes I've seen that Tent Cap before..........i don't know, but i don't reckon its to the Coldstream Guards.
Andy

OK, that's an interesting thought. There is a CG cap described as having white tape binding. Don't get me wrong, I do agree that you have an Albert Bonnet there, I just thought it was a later pattern. More research needed I think.
Post 30 shows the tall cap: http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...t=45096&page=4

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

Are you sure ? it looks the same as the chap in the photo I've just posted. I took it to Gary Gibbs the Archivist at the Guards Museum, he says its the Albert Cap/Bonnet. Ive Got a Pic of a Coldstream Guards one but i can't post it on here.
Andy

The enclosed images show how tall the Albert bonnet (aka 'Field cap') was Andy. Compare them with your example, which I think is the later 'Torin' type. As an interesting point note how the drum major (in the Crimea) is wearing his across the head with one side flap down forming a rudimentary peak. In the later, officer group, you can see a lone officer at the rear (stood in doorway) wearing a cap, again of taller dimensions.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

I never realised that, even though other ornate headdress badge's were being worn at that time. There is a photo i have seen ( i will post in a bit ) that i believe is a worsted Grenade being worn. This photo led me to believe the cross over between Worsted and Metal. There are people one in particular, who's name i won't mention won't believe the Grenade Metal being worn as early as the 1830's.
Thanks Toby much appreciated as always
Andy

Andy, since we last communicated on this matter of Foot Guards metal badges possibly originating from the late 1830s, I have been doing some more research, much of it via the work of the military historian Mr Charles Griffin, who has been able to gather together rare drawings and paintings of Foot Guards in undress wearing their own, unique pattern of forage cap at a time when line infantry had only the Kilmarnock (knitted) Bonnet that I have mentioned previously. From these contemporary drawings, it is clear that all ranks of Foot Guards were wearing a peaked cap surprisingly like today's variant throughout the 1830s and 1840s, but switched to a peakless version for ranks below battalion staff just before the Crimean war:

"The recruits being drilled by a sergeant are all wearing white drill jackets and forage caps. The forage caps are plain blue without the Scottish diced band that became the distinctive head-dress of the regiment. A regimental order of 20th Dec 1837 talks of new caps without specifying their appearance so perhaps the diced band caps were issued later in 1838. The drill sergeant has a full dress coat with a forage cap that is decorated with a gold band. His epaulettes and lace are also gold, and he wears a sword and crimson sash. This painting is another by MA Hayes while the regiment were in Dublin."

"The Scots Fusilier Guards probably started to wear the forage cap with diced band late in 1838. In the second painting, by M A Hayes, the men have forage caps with plain black peaks, brass badges and chin straps. The officers have the same pattern forage caps as the other Guards regiments with a black silk band. The frockcoat is dark blue with black mohair lace and braid. A black leather belt is worn over the crimson sash.
The other ranks are in summer drill order with white trousers and buff coloured jackets. A corporal has black stripes on both sleeves. The men are stacking arms in groups of three. The brass belt-plates and buckles are clearly depicted, there being two on the pouch belt. The pouch has a long flap and a brass badge, while the badge on the black knapsack is painted on. The mess tins are carried on top in a light coloured cover."

More to follow.........

[Toby Purcell]

This next picture is later, around 1850, but the men, this time Coldstream Guards, are still wearing the peaked forage cap (with brass star) mentioned from the 1838 Scots Guards above. They seem to be practising the slow march and carrying out a left form. Unusually, files seem to be carrying their arms differently, which makes me wonder if they are a way of indicating 'guides'.

"The sketch by Ebsworth that gives us a very useful idea of what the Coldstream Guards looked like when not parading in their dress uniforms. At first glance this looks like an informal stroll but they are marching in column of four, preceded by two sergeants, an officer and a trumpeter (sic - actually a drummer with bugle). What strikes me as strange is the fact that although they are in ranks and marching in step, they are very casual about the way they carry their muskets. Some are at the slope and some carry them by their side or under their arm.
They are all in undress summer order which means white trousers and short white jacket. The white jacket was a feature of Guards dress up to the early part of the 20th century and had its origins in the white waistcoat that was worn under the coat in full dress but was worn on it's own when drilling or performing menial work. The forage cap at this period has a peak and looks very smart so it is odd that it was transformed into the peakless pill-box by the time they were in the Crimea and which was retained until 1900."

The officer, at the front, wears his blue frock coat, sash and sword. His cap has a black lace band whereas the men have the white cap-band. The trumpeter has a knapsack like the others but no pouch belt, only a belt for his sword. The sergeants have the same equipment as the men. They have gold cap-band and a crimson sash round their waist. The chevrons are black on red backing cloth. The pioneer in the middle has a tan leather apron and a pouch on the front of his waist-belt with a badge on it. He has no shoulder belts, knapsack, axe or saw, so is the pouch for work tools or ammunition?"

"The men at the back are performing a wheeling movement which requires the inside man to march slower than the outside man. We can see the badge on the back of the knapsack which by this time is a brass garter star badge instead of the painted type. The man at the back, carrying his musket on his shoulder, is a sergeant who has a sword as well as a bayonet on his shoulder belt. It looks as if his ammunition pouch is a different shape to the ones worn by the privates and corporal."

[Toby Purcell]

Turning this time to the Coldstream Guards band and drums, once again we can see clearly the peaked forage caps and brass stars around 1850-51.

"A drawing from life by Ebsworth which gives us a valuable look at band uniform in the middle of the 19th century. The Drum-Major, in the middle was a very senior NCO and was dressed richly in a special uniform. His coatee had double rows of gold lace across his chest like the others but framed by a border of gold lace. His shoulders have fringed epaulettes and his sleeves are decorated with inverted gold chevrons all the way down to his slashed cuff. His upper arms are also covered by four gold chevrons of rank. His sword belt is white leather with a gilt beltplate but this is obscured by the wide drum-major's sash to which are attached two drumsticks. His bearskin has a red officer's plume on the right side.
The band corporal on the right of the picture holds a Euphonium and wears a curved sword of special band pattern. His coatee has 5 rows of double gold lace across the chest and a gold patch on the collar and a silver garter star on that. His epaulettes are stiff brass other ranks style. Next to him is a bandsman obliging us with a view of the back of the coat, revealing two pockets with four gold button loops."

"The band drummers on the left are not to be confused with the drummers that belong to the Corps of Drums. See Drummer 1851. These men have similar uniforms to the band corporal but have inverted gold chevrons down the sleeve. The blue cuff is pointed to fit in with the lowest chevron and does not have a slash flap like the band corporal and the Drum-Major."

"The drummer next to the drum-major is the bass drummer, having a short strap round his neck. The man second from left is hidden but we can see his drum carriage which looks blue with gold lace edges. All the bandsmen wear the undress forage cap which is , in essence, the same as that worn by the Guards of today, blue with white cap-band and welt round the top edge and a garter star badge."

"The second sketch, again from life by Ebsworth. The drummer on the left and the fifer on the right are members of the Corps of Drums, not the band. Between them stands a pioneer, leaning on his musket. They are in undress drill order. The white jacket was worn in this order for many years in the Guards, all year round, but the white trousers were only worn in the summer months. The undress cap is similar to the modern day forage cap, having a white cap-band and peak. They have their greatcoats folded on their backs as they would in full dress.
The drummer has a drum carriage round his neck which is decorated with blue fleur-de-lys. He has two shoulder belts, one is for a sword but the other is puzzling because there is no visible pouch. The fifer holds a trumpet in his right hand. He has one chevron on his left arm, this is black on a red cloth backing. He has a straight sword which is very different from the sword carried by bandsmen. His other shoulder belt carries a fife case which is silver and decorated with a silver garter star badge."

[Toby Purcell]

Last of all I show a Grenadier just after the new, peakless (pillbox style) cap, was introduced for colour sergeants and below, around 1851-52. Notice the gold band has been retained (and was a feature of Foot Guards caps until the demise of the staff and pillbox style caps in 1902). More importantly, note the distinctive shape of the grenade fired proper, with a quite pointed top, this was the standard badge that was also used by the grenadier companies of all line infantry (less Rifles), but above their brass number on the Kilmarnock bonnet.

He is dressed in summer drill order with an off-white wool waist length jacket and the starched and bleached white linen trousers that were worn throughout the summer months (equating to the later shirt-sleeve order period).

To summarise then, it seems clear that brass badges were in wear as early as 1838 and that initially the Grenadier Guards wore the standard, plain grenade, that was worn by all Grenadiers, of both Line and Foot Guards. It also seems to show that the Foot Guards were the first in the British Army, as a whole unit, to wear regimental, forage cap badges, as we know them today.

[grenadierguardsman]

Thanks Toby, some outstanding image's and info. Yes your probably right about the date for the Grenade badge and its use. I've been trawling through my books and the internet, but have not found much to be honest. I'm off to London soon so i'll have to quiz Gary Gibbs at the museum.
Thanks again
Andy

[grenadierguardsman]

Just found this Toby. Its from British Infantry Uniform since 1660 by Michael Barthorp. Cpl Grenadier Guards 1838, i believe that underneath the Fur cover is a Grenade.
Andy