British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum
British Army
Unit Identification Badges
Volume 3
British Officers’ Peak Caps of the Second World War New Book! Strictly Limited Print Run! Y&L Current Projects: Books by Forum Members
1) Canadian Pre 1914
2) CEF

3) Canadian post 1920
4) Canadian post 1953
5) British Cavalry Badges
6) Makers Marks

7) Pipers' Badges

A Collectors Guide To Infantry Glengarry Badges
Part 2
1881 - 2006
G.F.McWilliam


Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > British Military Insignia > Infantry (& Guards) Badges

ebay  
'Badges/Patches' 'Militaria, Badges'   Selected Sellers  Medals

 Military Badges

 All British  WW1  WW2  Canada  Endici  Andy WW1   WW2
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-01-11, 08:41 PM
Paddy's Avatar
Paddy Paddy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Portsmouth Area
Posts: 616
Thanks: 1
Thanked 14 Times in 5 Posts
Default Scots Guards, Officer's or WO's Cap Stars?

Dear All

I have got 3 different Scots Guards Officer's/WO's cap stars. I have looked at K&K to see what the difference is between the Officer & WO star but all it says is that there is a slight difference in the shape, unfortunately it doesn't say what that difference is. Looking at the pictures of the 2 badges in K&K (905 & 906) the only slight difference I can see is that on the WO's star the small "beads", "balls" (or whatever they are called) at the end of each ray seem to be more pronounced. Does anyone have a fail safe way of distinguishing between a Officer and WO cap star and would anyone like to hazard guesses as to the three I have shown below.

Many thanks

Paddy
Attached Images
File Type: jpg The Scots Guards Warrant Officer's Cap Star (SP, Gilt & Enamel).jpg (88.7 KB, 61 views)
File Type: jpg The Scots Guards Warrant Officer's Cap Star (SP, Gilt & Enamel)(Rear).jpg (88.9 KB, 56 views)
File Type: jpg DSCN2039.jpg (94.4 KB, 59 views)
File Type: jpg DSCN2036.jpg (94.1 KB, 55 views)
File Type: jpg DSCN1988.jpg (91.7 KB, 55 views)
File Type: jpg DSCN1991.jpg (96.8 KB, 53 views)
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 06-01-11, 09:39 PM
Deejayuu's Avatar
Deejayuu Deejayuu is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: County of the White Rose
Posts: 480
Thanks: 1
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Default

Hi Paddy,
nice badges. I cannot comment on whether your badges are officers or WO`s as i am no expert on these. What i can say is the badges look fairly modern ie post war. The diamond cut one i would say is very likely officers but again, you would need an expert to confirm. I do have some definate early officers badge for comparison though. I have a large silver gilt & enamel with J R Gaunt London stamped on the back. A really solid heavy item. I also have a much smaller SG&E pin backed badge. Not sure if this is an FSC item. The pin fitting is original. the badge is also hallmarked to the rear. The third i think is a collar in bronze. All are officers. Hope they are of use for comparison.
Kind regards, Dave
Attached Images
File Type: jpg scan0005.jpg (45.5 KB, 65 views)
File Type: jpg scan0006.jpg (37.3 KB, 60 views)
__________________
Tha’ can allus tell a Yorkshireman,
but tha’ can’t tell ‘im much.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-01-11, 12:14 AM
Tinto's Avatar
Tinto Tinto is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Gisborne, New Zealand
Posts: 1,777
Thanks: 22
Thanked 14 Times in 13 Posts
Default

Hello Paddy and Dave,
Very nice looking badges you have displayed.
Here are my two badges which I believe are officer's but I stand to be corrected. Both are 52mm high. The Anderson Edinburgh and Glasgow one on the left looks silver, is not hallmarked.
Cheers, Tinto
Attached Images
File Type: jpg ScotsGuards.jpg (36.0 KB, 61 views)
File Type: jpg ScotsGuardsrev.jpg (19.9 KB, 50 views)
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-01-11, 08:01 AM
Alex Rice Alex Rice is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,349
Thanks: 14
Thanked 16 Times in 15 Posts
Default

Hi Tinto
Your two badges look like Royal Scots officers badges, not Scots Guards.

Dave (Deejayuu) - I think your bronze badge is an early OSD badge from around WWI, but I'd need to confirm that. I don't think they wore collars on service dress.

Cheers,
Alex
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-01-11, 08:27 AM
Jeff Mc William's Avatar
Jeff Mc William Jeff Mc William is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Wakefield West Yorks
Posts: 673
Thanks: 6
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Hi All
Another "spanner in the works" from me I'm afraid :
According to Leask & McCance (and Bloomer), Officers of the Royal Scots wore an identical badge to the Officers of the Scots Guards from 1881 to 1931. How one would detect these (even if Hallmarked) is another problem. Regards Jeff
PS. I believe this has been discussed before on the forum but can't remember when.
PPS. Tinto, I guess that means that your stars date from post 1931.

Last edited by Jeff Mc William; 07-01-11 at 08:51 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-01-11, 09:46 AM
Jeff Mc William's Avatar
Jeff Mc William Jeff Mc William is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Wakefield West Yorks
Posts: 673
Thanks: 6
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Paddy :
Returning to your query tho', I don't think K&K are correct on this one. There must have been several slight variations from the many various strikings of this badge, and so I don't think there is a "fail safe" indication. Personally, I would say the "solid-struck" back (sometimes hallmarked) versions are more likely to be officers, as is Dave's badge. Regards Jeff
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-01-11, 12:28 PM
badjez's Avatar
badjez badjez is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hervey Bay QLD Australia
Posts: 1,352
Thanks: 13
Thanked 8 Times in 6 Posts
Default Scots Guards

IMO the main difference would be quality of manufacture. Until the 1950's officers bought their own insignia etc, so I would expect theirs to be silver etc. WO's had their kit issued by Ordnance so would be of a lesser quality.

If a WO made a private purchase his only option would be to buy insignia of officers quality. The level of demand being so small that no manufacturer would produce items in the small qauntity just for WO.

Stephen.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-01-11, 03:08 PM
Tinto's Avatar
Tinto Tinto is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Gisborne, New Zealand
Posts: 1,777
Thanks: 22
Thanked 14 Times in 13 Posts
Default

Hi Alex, and All,
Of course, you are right! I must have been having a "senior moment". Sorry about that.
Regards, Tinto
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-01-11, 06:42 PM
cbuehler cbuehler is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 684
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

I think Stephen has it here. There is really no definitive answer to be had.
The Scots Guards did not wear collar badges on OSD uniforms, so we can be sure that all such collar badges are Royal Scots only.

CB
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-01-11, 07:39 PM
2747andy's Avatar
2747andy 2747andy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Porthcawl, South Wales
Posts: 6,174
Thanks: 53
Thanked 125 Times in 86 Posts
Default

The first badge shown by Paddy at the start of this thread is one of the current LB&B badges issued to WOs. Rather nice and with a diamond effect, struck in frosted silvered metal. The other two look like the less spectacular White metal issued WOs badges. The way to tell older badges apart is that the Officers badges were silver or silver plate and had silver lugs whereas the WOs badges were Wm with copper lugs (this applies to 95% of older badges, some Offr SP badges came on copper lugs). As the badges are often well polished even the Wm badges appear almost like SP.

Andy
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 07-01-11, 10:00 PM
Paddy's Avatar
Paddy Paddy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Portsmouth Area
Posts: 616
Thanks: 1
Thanked 14 Times in 5 Posts
Default

Dear All

Thank you all for your input and pictures. I think the general concensus is that there is no fail safe way to tell the difference but that it is easier to tell an officer's pre 1950 badge due to it being private purchase and obviously of higher quality than an issued WO badge. I also think like Jeff that K&K is wrong in saying that there were slight differences in design between WO & officer's badges and I think it is more than likely manufacturer's variation. Of the 3 badges I have shown - The first one I bought about 6 months and I have assumed it to be a WO's cap star. As Andy says it is LB&B and it is a very nice badge, by far the better looking of the 3. The 3rd badge was acquired over Christmas and was advertised as an officer's cap star, although a nice multi part construction badge (dismantled pic attached) it is nowhere near the quality and feel of the first badge, it feels and looks more like white metal than silver/SP. I received the 2nd badge this week and believe it or not it is the current issue officer's cap star (large, there is a current issue small version as well). It was in it's original packaging with the correct NSN etc (8455-99-130-3593) which iaw JSP 768 is Scot's Guards Officer's Cap Badge (Large), "Sterling silver gilt finish, Green enamel finish in centre". As you can tell from the picture it is nowhere near the quality of some of the earlier badges shown. Putting all 3 badges side by side, I can see no real difference in design but there is the obvious differences in quality of finish.

Many thanks again to all

Paddy
Attached Images
File Type: jpg DSCN1985.jpg (74.8 KB, 30 views)
File Type: jpg DSCN1982.jpg (86.4 KB, 27 views)
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 07-01-11, 10:11 PM
fougasse1940's Avatar
fougasse1940 fougasse1940 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,607
Thanks: 7
Thanked 35 Times in 29 Posts
Default

I'm going to openly flaunt my lack of SG badge knowledge by stating that the London Badge & Button Company made both unofficial and MoD contract badges between 1973 and 2000, when they were taken over by Toye Kenning & Spencer, but all OR's badges?
Shooting season is re-opened NOW!

Rgds,
fougasse1940.

Last edited by fougasse1940; 07-01-11 at 10:17 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 06-05-12, 08:34 AM
Edward G Robinson Edward G Robinson is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Perth West Australia
Posts: 1
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Mc William View Post
Hi All
Another "spanner in the works" from me I'm afraid :
According to Leask & McCance (and Bloomer), Officers of the Royal Scots wore an identical badge to the Officers of the Scots Guards from 1881 to 1931. How one would detect these (even if Hallmarked) is another problem. Regards Jeff
PS. I believe this has been discussed before on the forum but can't remember when.
PPS. Tinto, I guess that means that your stars date from post 1931.
Thanks for this bit of information.
I have been trying to spot the difference between the Royal Scots Officers badge and the Scots Guards for years. No one has been able to tell me what the difference is . This could explain why the pictures in the various books I have consulted all look the same!
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 06-05-12, 10:22 AM
ray smith ray smith is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Aberbeeg, South Wales, UK
Posts: 213
Thanks: 23
Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinto View Post
Hello Paddy and Dave,
Very nice looking badges you have displayed.
Here are my two badges which I believe are officer's but I stand to be corrected. Both are 52mm high. The Anderson Edinburgh and Glasgow one on the left looks silver, is not hallmarked.
Cheers, Tinto
Hi Tinto your two badges are Royal Scots,Although the Scots Guards & Royal Scots are similar The Royal Scots are more elongated top to bottom where as the Scots Guards are symmetrical.
As for Officers, All the ones i have seen have been Hall Marked and the lobes at the outside of the badge is more pronounced.
I hope this helps.
Regards
Ray Smith ex Scots Guards
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 07-05-12, 02:21 PM
badjez's Avatar
badjez badjez is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hervey Bay QLD Australia
Posts: 1,352
Thanks: 13
Thanked 8 Times in 6 Posts
Default Scots Guards

Just a little factual info to add to your deliberations:


05.02.81. At the 249th Meeting of the Army Dress Committee, the Committee were informed that Officers of the Scots Guards had declined to accept the in-service cap and beret badge because it was not made of Sterling Silver. The Secretary was asked to write to the Regt asking them to reconsider the acceptability of the silver plated cap and beret badge.

This refers to the change in provision of Officer's badges, where these items were supplied to Officers by Ordnance upon repayment, instead of Officers purchasing their own from military tailors.

Stephen.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 02:16 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.