LYPAO (KK1424) 1952 "Gold-Anodised"

[davec2]

Hi gentlemen,

With regards to this little bone Griff has, I've seen it and handled it and in my opinion it is not " Gold Anodised " but definately gilt/gold effect finished, in my mind that can only be electro-plated...........

Dave.

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by GriffMJ

Griff & Dave,
this is not anodised or electro plated, it is the normal finish of a mint condition Gilding metal badge. A very fine finish that would be quickly rubbed or polished away when subjected to normal daily cleaning or use. Also if it is a Gaunt London mark without the full stop it is probably much earlier than 1952!!

Andy

[davec2]

Cheers Andy,

I can live with being corrected, that's never a problem but where does your answer lie with K.& K.'s description of " Gold anodised " ?? bearing in mind that this is all new to me and accepting the fact that I am slightly shell shocked after having so many beautiful badges shoved under my nose today !!

Dave.

[2747andy]

Dave,
in every other reference to "anodised" in vol 2 of K&K it refers to "staybright" or aluminium badges which began to be introduced mid to late fifties. I put their reference to anodised down to an error on their part (one of many others)!

Metal badges, were like new coins when issued and just like todays copper coins tarnish very quickly when used. Put them away or inside a plastic cover and they stay brighter for longer. The last badge posted by Griff is IMO an unused example of a Leics Yeo badge. As to the dating being post 1952, the makers mark went out of use prior to this date, Gaunt London adopting a much larger font. Here are two examples of a R Mons RE with genuine small and large makers marks. The larger being the one in use in 1952? Note also the larger Font MM also appears on a more modern style slider, i.e. it is not tapered at the end and is shorter, ending just below the bottom of the badge. This is what I class as a modern slider and although I have no evidence it is my opinion that it came into wide use WW2 onwards. The earlier slider has the tapered tip which sticks below the bottom of the badge and bears the older MM. The earlier slider with small MM appears as early as Edvii and I feel was used upto late into WW2?


Andy

[2747andy]

As to the "New" almost anodised look, here are three badges from the WW1 collection I've just acquired, they look brand new but are all WW1 vintage, the West Yorks having the long grass and joined front legs pattern, the 6th Dragoon Gds (pre 22 pattern) and 1st KDG WW1 adopted pattern.

Andy

[GriffMJ]

Andy

That would explain what we saw in the back of the c1922-28 "Bert's Crest" (I asked Dave & Gordon if it was "Gilt")..... but I would contend that the finish on the "what was agreed to be" an electro-plated post 1952 was different in look and feel? The Makers Mark was the 11mm J.R.GAUNTLONDON (If Gordon would kindly confirm this?).

BTW the little c1922-28 "Bert's Crest" was a belter! In "mint" condition......

[fougasse1940]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Dave,
in every other reference to "anodised" in vol 2 of K&K it refers to "staybright" or aluminium badges which began to be introduced mid to late fifties. I put their reference to anodised down to an error on their part (one of many others)!

Metal badges, were like new coins when issued and just like todays copper coins tarnish very quickly when used. Put them away or inside a plastic cover and they stay brighter for longer. The last badge posted by Griff is IMO an unused example of a Leics Yeo badge. As to the dating being post 1952, the makers mark went out of use prior to this date, Gaunt London adopting a much larger font. Here are two examples of a R Mons RE with genuine small and large makers marks. The larger being the one in use in 1952? Note also the larger Font MM also appears on a more modern style slider, i.e. it is not tapered at the end and is shorter, ending just below the bottom of the badge. This is what I class as a modern slider and although I have no evidence it is my opinion that it came into wide use WW2 onwards. The earlier slider has the tapered tip which sticks below the bottom of the badge and bears the older MM. The earlier slider with small MM appears as early as Edvii and I feel was used upto late 1930s?


Andy

The smaller J.R.GAUNTLONDON mark was used later than the late 1930s as it can be found on WWII British made Dutch forces in exile badges.

Rgds,
fougasse1940.

[GriffMJ]

Originally Posted by fougasse1940

The smaller J.R.GAUNTLONDON mark was used later than the late 1930s as it can be found on WWII British made Dutch forces in exile badges.

Rgds,
fougasse1940.

I will agree with that on the basis that the badge "design" I have illustrated in this post was produced c1939...... more probably 1940. It was in production specifically for the "two" new LYPAO Field Regiments RA (153/154). All the makers marks on the gilding-metal badges that I have from this period have the small 11mm :-

1) J.R.GAUNTLONDON
2) J.R.GAUNT LONDON
3) J.R.GAUNT.LONDON

Other facts (to back up initial badge production date) :-

a) In 1941 the 153rd (LYPAO) RA mobilised first (October) to join the Guards Armoured Div in Europe
b) In 1942 the 154th (LYPAO) RA mobilised second (March 30th) to join the 8th Army.
c) All photoraphs (post 1928) of the LYPAO Cavalry Regiment up to 1939 show them wearing the c1928-39 "design" Cap/Collar/Arm.
d) All RA Training photos post 1939 either show O/Rs wearing the RA Gun or the c1939-57 LYPAO badge "design".

[Alan O]

It is also found on war raised cavalry and yeomanry badges so the 1940-6 dates for these units is a good match.

[GriffMJ]

(See also post #23 first)

It appears there might have been two "large" productions of the LYPAO c1939-57 badge, one in 1940 and also another *On 29.09.46. Gaunt delivered 5,480 LY badges (Pattern CB1239).

[1] In 1947 the LYPAO are scaled back to become one Regiment again and are converted to a Tank Regiment (Hussars) in the RAC.

[1] 1949 = National Service Act

[1] 1950 = National Service Act Amendment

[1] In 1952 the role of the Regiment changed to Anti-Tank (still AFV), becoming at the same time Corps Troops, but attached to the 9th Armoured Brigade.

[2] In 1952 we then get the sealed patterns (9th of May 1952) for the White-metal & the "Gold-anodised" Cap & Collar badges.

[1] Most National Servicemen have done their time by now.... a few stay on as Yeoman.

5 years later amalgamation with the DY to become the LDYPAO Recce Regiment.

Another question would be:-

We know that the white metal 1952-57 Cap & Collar badges exists...... so therefore why not the "Gold-anodised" that was quoted in the same sealed pattern of the 9th of may 1952?

*Ref: Stephen Risby (Forum Member)
Other reference material:-
[1] "An outline of the History of The Leicestershire (Prince Albert's Own) Yeomanry", by Col. Sir Geoffrey Codrington KCVO, CB, CMG, DSO, OBE, TD
[2] "Head-Dress badges of the British Army" Vol.2, by Kipling & King : K&K (Fig.1424)

[GriffMJ]

Sealed pattern 9th May 1952:- White metal & "Gold-anodised"
Same type of finish on all three badges....


*The white metal-collar photo was taken today, the collar badge was taken off a post WW2 uniform in the LYPAO Meuseum, Loughborough, Leics. Its still bright and shiney after all these years. (Natural light..... no camera flash)

[Alan O]

An anodised aluminium badge of that k/c era date (1952) would make it very very early - infact one of the first ones issued I suspect. Most regts had large stocks of old ones to use up and it was only 'new' designs that had never been made in metal that were made this early. Even new designs in the late 50s badge (LDY for example) seem to have been initially mad ein bi-metal. It is only with the new Inf bde badges in 58 and the new TA badges circa 1960 (TA Surreys, 23rd London q/c etc) that they are only made in a/a alone.

I suspect that the anodised badges mentioned in K&K are 'plated/gilded/whatever' brass badges and not a/a.

Inevitably there are exceptions and the Sussex Yeo k/c and q/c are the obvious example of this.

Alan

[GriffMJ]

Hi Alan

Its not contended that they are A/A........ but "electro-plated" or something similar.