British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Recent Books by Forum Members

   

Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > British Military Insignia > Infantry (& Guards) Badges

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books  SEARCH
 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 26-05-16, 09:51 AM
DJT's Avatar
DJT DJT is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Europe
Posts: 306
Default Economy RDF cap badge with slider

The general consensus is that there was no economy cap badge produced for the Royal Dublin Fusiliers so I was quite surprised to see the attached badge hammer at Bosleys recently for £130! Am I missing something here? Did any member manage to handle this one in person?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg RDF.jpg (20.7 KB, 107 views)
__________________
Regards,

Des
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 26-05-16, 02:42 PM
connaught connaught is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 207
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJT View Post
The general consensus is that there was no economy cap badge produced for the Royal Dublin Fusiliers so I was quite surprised to see the attached badge hammer at Bosleys recently for £130! Am I missing something here? Did any member manage to handle this one in person?
I thought it quite clear that the Dubs did not have an economy issue sanctioned by the WO, not one I would have.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 26-05-16, 03:27 PM
Chipper's Avatar
Chipper Chipper is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: France
Posts: 905
Default

In Julian and David's seminal article on 1916 all GM badges - in Vol 66 of the MHS Bulletin - they specifically mention RDF as NOT being included in the all GM ranks.

I'd love to know Bosley's rationale for this.

Cheers, Tim
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 26-05-16, 05:04 PM
manchesters's Avatar
manchesters manchesters is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 7,572
Default

Never say Never is my motto for collecting military badges!
__________________
Simon Butterworth

Manchester Regiment Collector
Rank, Prize & Trade Badges
British & Commonwealth Artillery Badges
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 26-05-16, 06:01 PM
Chipper's Avatar
Chipper Chipper is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: France
Posts: 905
Default

I actually agree Simon, they are wise words. My problem is, this is not a 'known' GM badge, and while it absolutely could be, it equally may not be. They have sold it as if there is no doubt about it.

I will confess I don't have any great love for Bosley's, having got the rough end of the stick several times, so I guess I am a little overly critical because of that.

Thanks for reminding us to keep an open mind.

Cheers, Tim




Quote:
Originally Posted by manchesters View Post
Never say Never is my motto for collecting military badges!
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 27-05-16, 01:51 PM
KLR's Avatar
KLR KLR is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: London
Posts: 3,055
Default

The usual answer to these awkward questions is that it was "unofficial" !
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 27-05-16, 02:26 PM
John Mulcahy's Avatar
John Mulcahy John Mulcahy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,291
Default

Des,

I personally do not think that you have missed anything.

The myth that this 1916 program (all GM Forage cap badges) was carried out to save nickel has been categorically dispelled by the discovery, in the official archives of the government agency responsible for the supply of military insignia at public expense, that manufacturing difficulties was the reason for the initiative.

What is known for certain (thanks to this official government source (WO359)) is that certain regiments , which were originally included in the program by virtue of being a BM badge design, were exempted approximately 2 weeks after the program was approved and that those regiments were ‘struck out of demands in red ink” .

Although the RACD list of changes does not specifically list the regiments exempted, the Bent & Parker quotation book lists the badges previously made in BM that must now be made in all GM. It is the absence from this list of The Royal Dublin Fusiliers (along with the positive identification that some regiments were actively exempted by the WO/RACD) that in my mind provides the body of evidence that no all GM badge was authorized for the RDF by the agency responsible for managing the production and issue of the badges supplied to them at public expense.

In terms of “never say never” I do take the comment in the spirit in which it is meant and it is a wise maxim.

In this instance I see no body of evidence for the existence of an RDF “1916 other ranks economy all brass” forage cap badge.

I can only speculate that the reason someone paid such an amount for this item is the belief that if this auctioneer offers it as a bone fide badge then their high degree of credibly in the collection world validates the badge as real. Whereas I too believe that this is overall a competent and knowledgeable auction house I do not see them actively contributing to research and understanding of the hobby.

I have personally seen the hand written entry in the RACD record of changes that authorizes the program and the subsequent exemption statement and the rescinding of the program in 1919. I have personally looked through every page of the register of changes into the early 1930’s including the general notebook and there is no specific mention of the RDF being included (or excluded) in the program for the forage cap badge. I have never found a regimental reference to the regiment using all GM badges or deciding on its own initiative to produce an all GM badge.

The fact that RACD, when it abandoned the lack of piercing of badges for the RA, ASC & RE (another economy measure – albeit abandoned early as non-effective), noted in the record of changes that those corps considered the lack of piercing a disfigurement of their badges and a likely cause of complaint leads me to believe that the RDF would have considered an all GM version of their BM forage cap a degradation.

Thus, I cannot believe that they produced such a badge on their own initiative.

So on the body of evidence available to me I exclude all GM RDF die-stamped forage cap badges from my collection.

Julian’s article has the most thorough and up to date details on the subject with primary sources. It is is great value to the hobby. Well done Julian!


John
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 27-05-16, 02:33 PM
Alan O's Avatar
Alan O Alan O is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 12,730
Default

John

Thank you for such a thorough reply, I agree with everything you have said.

For members' reference I attach a photo of a repro badge from my file of fake and repro badge pictures. It is from a different die but is an example of a very good fake.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg fake rdf 2.jpg (25.0 KB, 47 views)
File Type: jpg fake rdf.jpg (31.3 KB, 50 views)
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 27-05-16, 02:40 PM
Alan O's Avatar
Alan O Alan O is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 12,730
Default

As to the source of the die for the one sold by Bosleys. If you look at the tail placement and compare the ORs' sealed patterns in the NAM (tail up) with RDF Officers collar badges (tail down) that might explain it. I am not saying that Bosleys sold a collar but that an old collar die was likely used to make it much later than 1916.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 27-05-16, 05:38 PM
DJT's Avatar
DJT DJT is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Europe
Posts: 306
Default

Thanks for the replies everyone. Very informative stuff particularly from John. The new owner of the badge in question will no doubt be disappointed if they ever come across this thread.
__________________
Regards,

Des
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 27-05-16, 07:01 PM
manchesters's Avatar
manchesters manchesters is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 7,572
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJT View Post
Thanks for the replies everyone. Very informative stuff particularly from John. The new owner of the badge in question will no doubt be disappointed if they ever come across this thread.
I reserve judgement until I see a photo of the back of it.

regards
__________________
Simon Butterworth

Manchester Regiment Collector
Rank, Prize & Trade Badges
British & Commonwealth Artillery Badges
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 27-05-16, 09:20 PM
DJT's Avatar
DJT DJT is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Europe
Posts: 306
Default

Duly noted Simon.


Quote:
Originally Posted by manchesters View Post
I reserve judgement until I see a photo of the back of it.

regards
__________________
Regards,

Des
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 28-05-16, 06:55 AM
KLR's Avatar
KLR KLR is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: London
Posts: 3,055
Default

Judgement on what Simon ?

I cannot tell you what that badge is
but I can definitely tell you what it is not

The research that the late David Linaker did was flawless and I like to think that further research by me and by John and others is as thorough.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 28-05-16, 12:02 PM
manchesters's Avatar
manchesters manchesters is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 7,572
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KLR View Post
Judgement on what Simon ?

I cannot tell you what that badge is
but I can definitely tell you what it is not

The research that the late David Linaker did was flawless and I like to think that further research by me and by John and others is as thorough.
If you cannot tell me what it IS, there remains a mystery that needs to be solved.

Seeing the rear of the badge would be a help in trying to solve that mystery.

The rear may make it obvious that its a fake.

Common sense I would have thought.
__________________
Simon Butterworth

Manchester Regiment Collector
Rank, Prize & Trade Badges
British & Commonwealth Artillery Badges
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 28-05-16, 04:39 PM
KLR's Avatar
KLR KLR is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: London
Posts: 3,055
Default

Yes, I see what you mean. I suppose what I meant is that as I know what it is not, we need an alternative identification.
I know of one obvious identification ....
perhaps going down the collar badge (repurposed ?) track might lead somewhere ???
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

mhs link

All times are GMT. The time now is 06:47 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.