Other Ranks wearing Officer Cap Badge?

[Peter Brydon]

And especially at Home with relatives and the family dog.

P.B.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Stephen

Hi all,

I was given the attached photo a while ago, it is of a group of men from the 1st Battalion, Leinster Regiment, taken around 1920-1922.

You can see in the photo all the cap badges are reflective expect one, which appears to be a bronze officers version?

What are peoples thoughts? The chap in question doesn't look like an officer and is sitting to the right of the RSM.

Stephen

I suspect that he might be the battalion RQMS, Stephen. I think that I can see a crown within a laurel wreath on his right forearm. It used to be the tradition that the WOs and first class staff sergeants wore officers badges in certain head dress and this might be a hang over from that, although I am unclear why the RSM sat next to him would not be the same.

Alternatively, I wonder if he is from one of the regiments Reserve/Special Reserve battalions with a rifles heritage and so wears a black badge. Some regiments did that.

The three (Special) Reserve battalions had prior to 1908 been: King's County Royal Rifles Militia, Royal Queen's County Rifles Militia, Royal Meath Militia.

[Mike_2817]

Now then I think ID'ing first person as the RSM may be way of track.

I think the man with the Sam Brown and cane is an Officer in Blue Patrols wearing a Gilt Badge, while the second man is the RSM or RQMS wearing Khaki Service Dress with Blackened Cap Badge.

Look at the 'officers' shoulder epaulet and I think you can see trace of an upper 'pip' aka second glint of metal.

Over to you

[manchesters]

Mike,

Thats a WO1 in SD.

Button up collar and large cane, 100% the RSM.

Officers carried sticks and at that period had open collars.

regards

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Mike_2817

Now then I think ID'ing first person as the RSM may be way of track.

I think the man with the Sam Brown and cane is an Officer in Blue Patrols wearing a Gilt Badge, while the second man is the RSM or RQMS wearing Khaki Service Dress with Blackened Cap Badge.

Look at the 'officers' shoulder epaulet and I think you can see trace of an upper 'pip' aka second glint of metal.

Over to you

He is wearing the same shade of khaki as everyone else to my (well practised with khaki) eyes. His cap is also shaped subtly differently to the officer pattern I think. If it is khaki, as I believe (blue patrol appears darker when alongside khaki), then his closed collar implies a WO. An other rank behind would never in a million years be so 'familiar' as to place his hands on a commissioned officer's shoulders and even on a WO suggests a special relationship. I think the glint that you see is just a button.

[grey_green_acorn]

Originally Posted by Stephen

Hi all,

I was given the attached photo a while ago, it is of a group of men from the 1st Battalion, Leinster Regiment, taken around 1920-1922.

You can see in the photo all the cap badges are reflective expect one, which appears to be a bronze officers version?

What are peoples thoughts? The chap in question doesn't look like an officer and is sitting to the right of the RSM.

Stephen

If this photograph was taken in 1922, and with the message held by the centre man in the front row, then it was taken perhaps just before the Leinsters were disbanded? The informal group is a mix of soldiers NCOs and WOs so possibly Bn HQ or Depot staff? If the RSM then he may be the last RSM of the Leinsters?
Tim

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grey_green_acorn

If this photograph was taken in 1922, and with the message held by the centre man in the front row, then it was taken perhaps just before the Leinsters were disbanded? The informal group is a mix of soldiers NCOs and WOs so possibly Bn HQ or Depot staff? If the RSM then he may be the last RSM of the Leinsters?
Tim

Yes, I think so too. Depot staff.

[monty]

Going the other way,A 1st Bn Lincolnshire Rgt officer wearing an ORs pat badge,To the left of the Sir with the jack russell terrier.

[tynesideirish]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

I can only think that he had lost his ORs badge and borrowed an officer's badge for the photo. Alternatively and a very long shot, I wonder if it might have been chosen as a differential between one battalion and another (first, second, third line, etc). It does seem very strange, especially for a private soldier.

Haha, I don't know why he's wearing a cord boss badge in his cap but were soldiers in the habit of borrowing Officers private purchase badges? I wouldn't think so.

I know he is at home, away from the scary stare of the RSM, but still seems an unlikely thing to wear unless he was entitled. It would be more probable that he was an Officer Cadet.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by tynesideirish

Haha, I don't know why he's wearing a cord boss badge in his cap but were soldiers in the habit of borrowing Officers private purchase badges? I wouldn't think so.

I know he is at home, away from the scary stare of the RSM, but still seems an unlikely thing to wear unless he was entitled. It would be more probable that he was an Officer Cadet.

Yes, I know it was a very long shot. It's certainly very intriguing as it's difficult to conjure up a scenario that bears scrutiny, including the idea of being an officer cadet. Most officer cadets of that period that I have seen wore officer uniform without badges and a white band around their cap.

[Stephen]

Thanks all for the renewed interested in my post and I apologise for responding a month later.

I was able to get a high quality image of the two men of interest.

Interesting theory that the image is of depot staff prior to the disbandment of the regiment, this would make sense as the image came from someone who has spent all their life in Birr (where the Leinsters were based).

If the man with the cane and sam brown belt is the battalion or depot RSM then I should hopefully be able to ID him.

Thanks again for all the input guys!

Stephen

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Stephen

Thanks all for the renewed interested in my post and I apologise for responding a month later.

I was able to get a high quality image of the two men of interest.

Interesting theory that the image is of depot staff prior to the disbandment of the regiment, this would make sense as the image came from someone who has spent all their life in Birr (where the Leinsters were based).

If the man with the cane and sam brown belt is the battalion or depot RSM then I should hopefully be able to ID him.

Thanks again for all the input guys!

Stephen

Thank you for the better image, I can see the badges of rank much clearer now. It does indeed show a WOI (RSM) in Sam Browne belt with a very 'familiar' LCpl's hands on his shoulders (comparing their medal ribbons I would say they are longstanding comrades), and a WOII (RQMS) in OSD bronze, or perhaps black (although latter unrecorded) cap badge. The badge of rank worn by the RQMS (crown in wreath) was only introduced for that appointment in 1918. There seems little doubt to me that this was one of the last photos taken of the Leinster Regt depot staff at Birr. A wonderfully historic and evocative image. I hope that a copy can be given to the regimental museum.

[Stephen]

Thanks again for the input Toby, I didn't truly appreciate the significance of the image when it was first given to me, hopefully now with a bit of research I'll be able to ID some of the men in the photo.

Cheers,

Stephen