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#46
30-10-14, 07:49 PM
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How much are the repro plates Neibelungen?
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Cofion gorau Gruffydd M-J www.paoyeomanry.org.uk "A Yeoman from the Stalwart Rural Cavalry" Lechyd da pob Cymro 
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#47
30-10-14, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
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#48
31-10-14, 03:07 AM
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You cant go around potentially ruining reputations of sellers & auctioneers like that without expecting legal repercussions. Put some evidence forward. Evidence that I heard an opinion about potential confusion vetting plates -- consistent with my direct experience? If UK auction houses need protecting from the likes of me then I urge someone to start petitioning the State Dept. for my extradition without delay!
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#49
31-10-14, 08:08 AM
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So whats What?
Hi Areowallah,
Well you still have not named your source and you were quiet damming on the plates even to the extent that I had returned the plates I got after I had them vetted and i was getting my money back................as said news to me. This sounds like sour Grapes because they did not go ahead with the auction of your plates as they had concerns. However as Keith pointed out some excellent information has come out of the thread that's quiet fascinating how the things are being copied ,tarnished metal ect ect. As for extradition well if your going to make such profound statements about some of our older and well established auction houses you better stay were you are unless of course you can substantiate your claim with evidence which I have asked twice to see and you have body swerved the subject. Rgs Mac
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#50
31-10-14, 09:26 AM
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Did you buy Lot 9 Mac or didn't you?
My only sourness at the moment is that my plates are trapped in some kind of limbo... Rgds
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#51
31-10-14, 10:05 AM
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Yes
Yes I got lot 9 and it was sold as a RR plate possible sample had no problems with that at all.
So in fact what your saying is because they did not want to sell your plates and your in a disagreement with whoever you would rain on someone else's parade. I never thought much of your attitude when I tried to purchase the plates earlier in the year when I asked some providence questions. I am so glad I did not pursue the purchase. I think you better stick to zeppelins hopefully your disappear in one! Sorry if I have offended any other members of the site, but I am a tad angry. Rgs Mac
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#52
31-10-14, 11:27 AM
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Mac, so you're the fellow who emailed me on eBay and wanted all the names and details in advance from the accompanying provenance letters!
I tried to explain to you then that in deference to a previous owner's family I couldn't give their identity out except to the new owner, but that if you wanted to run a name by me (given that this 17th has been in the public eye on display at an ex-Lancer's public house and on Roadshow) I would try to accommodate you by confirming if you were right. I do remember you saying quite distinctly that you were an Englishman and that I was rude. Not unduly fazed by this I then put you in touch with the immediate previous owner and I gather you had a satisfactory chinwag with him but, due to my previous rudeness and not the price I was asking, were going to pass on the plates anyway. I'm sorry I couldn't do more for you at the time but the family of the Lancer who was presented the 17th plate expressly forbade me from revealing their name except in the Letter of Provenance provided the new owner. I will check on my information about the plates being currently vetted and find out what the discrepancy is and, perhaps, owe you a second apology. I am at somewhat of a remove out here, transatlantic Zeppelin travel being no longer in service! Rgds Last edited by Aerowallah; 31-10-14 at 01:19 PM.
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#53
31-10-14, 11:39 AM
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Neibelungen,
Will your plastiformed 17th weigh more or less than one made in the 1850s? Given your experience with plastiforming, are there any tips you can share with us for distinguishing them from originals. Looking forward to your photos. Rgds PS Do the silver mounts on your 17th protrude over the back of the rayed plate? Last edited by Aerowallah; 31-10-14 at 11:44 AM.
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#54
31-10-14, 05:21 PM
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It's electroforming. You are plating into a mould ( or a mandrel) that is made conductive with a metalic lacquer and building up the object in copper, nickel or occasionally silver.
The object weighs as much as the thickness of the metal, which can be anywhere from 0.5mm to 5mm depending on time in the tank. Quite often there will be a tin or pewter layer to reinforce or solidify the item. In complex processes, it's often possible to remove the plate and grind down or mask off areas that are too thick and build up thinner areas selectively. The back rayed plate is made as a separate part in exactly the same way and the silver parts pinned and mounted to the plate. You'll occasionally notice a slight lip to the inside, or a 'graininess' to the back and sometimes a degree of filling marks to flat down the back. But, like any metal object, you can remove most marks with a little effort. I'm not sure what you mean by 'protrude', as the are separate pieces pinned over the rayed back plate. The tops of the lion and unicorn are slightly higher than the plate, but that's down to positioning more than anything, though it's a tight fit to get them onto the plate comfortably.
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#55
31-10-14, 06:49 PM
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I'm completely lost now?
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#56
31-10-14, 08:25 PM
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My takeaway from Neibelungen is that my plate is made from one of the moulds floating around or was the model for one of those moulds.
Weighing originals against electroforms may not be revealing as differences in mass depend on how much material was built up and then taken off. Measuring also, as very fine tolerances are achieved. So I look forward to that side-by-side comparison to see how much sharpness and detail is lost in a generation...
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#57
31-10-14, 08:42 PM
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By the way, I owe Mac an apology...
I was in error and am sorry for suggesting that Mac was not happy with his RR plate and was planning to return it. It was someone else I trust who was not happy with it in preview and advised against bidding on it. I can't say more as I have no expertise to offer but, Mac, with some plates from this collection being returned, why not have yours checked by older hands since you have not been at this long as you posted? My only excuse for sticking my nose in (not realizing a poster here bought one of these plates) is that I have never seen so much disagreement and lack of consensus about a class of militaria. Add widespread electroforming and I think the newbie should not buy unless he has an undoubted specimen to compare with, and that's easier said than done. I'm not sure an undoubted specimen of this 17th pattern can be said to exist any more!
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#58
31-10-14, 08:52 PM
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The last bit of news today--
I sent pictures to DNW for Dixon Pickup to scrutinize, and Nimrod Dix wrote back: I have heard back from Dixon Pickup who says that the pre-Crimean plate is a fake of a known type - the silver mounts are larger than they should be and should not protrude over the edge of the back plate. The plate with Khartoum honour appears to be genuine but he would need to see it to be certain - value £500-700. So we have three different sets of opinions from Graham Lay, Roy Butler and Dixon Pickup, the first two did not know of this "known type" of fake. In post 22, Phil (Lancer 17) wrote-- Now Re your helmet plates, I have in fact found 3 photographs of your helmet plate on lance caps, they could all be of the same cap. One is a very fury black and white but the other 2 are good colour photos and the plate can be seen quite clearly. It is worn with a white horse hair plume. They clearly show the crown of the skull going up into the scroll above which has a big curve in it. The OR GLORY scroll goes over the lower ends of the bones and the scroll has squared ends with vertical rows of dots as in the current Motto. The rayed plate has the rays going down to the bottom of the plate. So I have no hesertation in saying that it is a good one... Regards Phil. Perhaps Phil would post these and we can see if Dixon's simple assertion that the silver mounts are too large is borne out in Phil's photos. If Dixon is right then Neibelungen's plate, the moulds going back to the 90s, and the "original" from which this mould was taken--perhaps mine!--are all of this "known type" of fake--a plate that never existed! But then Roy Butler and Graham Lay would have to be wrong... Rgds Last edited by Aerowallah; 31-10-14 at 09:15 PM.
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#59
01-11-14, 04:19 AM
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It's an interesting design of plate as it's not listed in David Row's book (Headdress of the British Lancers) which shows a different plate style listed between 1837 and 1856, although he's unclear about whether there was a new pattern introduced with the 1846 pattern lance cap.
The earliest date I've seen for this particular style of 17th plate in from a plate sold at Bonhams in Nov 2009, and images of a complete 17th lancer cap of the 1846 Pattern on an american auction listing site.. A similar O/R's style appeared on a supposed SNCO version (ie 1 piece brass) on Ebay. The earlier (1837) seems to be the same Royal Arms device seen on 16th (1837 and 1846? and 12th (1837) lancer pattern plates (Full royal arms with a mantled helmet and a continuous scroll below with overlapping wreath), with a large flattish skull above bones, and below 'Or Glory on a separate tri-section scroll that sits on a flatter projected section of the backing rayed plate (ie an 1837 style back plate) All in, it does seem unclear if there is an 1846 plate for the 17th, or at least one completely documented other than the sources above. Perhaps communication with the regimental museum might shed some light as to the origin of this mysterious style. Last edited by Neibelungen; 01-11-14 at 09:38 AM.
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#60
01-11-14, 08:43 AM
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Thanks
apology Accepted Areowallah,
Thread has become most fascinating with all the technical bumf,. I almost purchased the plate a while back glad I held of now, but sorry that its fake at another's expense. As someone pointed out to me the other day stick to what you know and if you don't get someone that does. I too mad a mistake the other day and its been pointed out and I have contacted the seller and I am getting my money back £12.00 on a 9th badge from a trader................live and learn Rgs Mac
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