KRRC Badge Change

[Mike H]

Originally Posted by leigh kitchen

Great - a Green Jacket - tell me what corded boss / badges I need on this please - a crown above seperate stringed bugle or just Maltese Cross type?

It looks like it had an oval boss on it at some point. So black oval cord boss with silver bugle.
But the bugle majors busby badges were different for each battalion. I have a good image of a black french horn type bugle with a black crown above. Crown backed with red felt .
Ill dig out the image and of the other one too.

The KRRC belt plate did not alter ,the crown remained the same til they became 2RGJ.Officers were then allowed to wear a belt plate of any of the parent regiments. I have an image of an Officer circa 1995 wearing the cross with victorian crown on the shoulder belt.

[leigh kitchen]

Originally Posted by Mike H

It looks like it had an oval boss on it at some point. So black oval cord boss with silver bugle.
But the bugle majors busby badges were different for each battalion. I have a good image of a black french horn type bugle with a black crown above. Crown backed with red felt .
Ill dig out the image and of the other one too.

The KRRC belt plate did not alter ,the crown remained the same til they became 2RGJ.Officers were then allowed to wear a belt plate of any of the parent regiments. I have an image of an Officer circa 1995 wearing the cross with victorian crown on the shoulder belt.

Thanks, I'd worked out the oval black boss, but was thinking of blackened crowned bugle rather than silver coloured.
The top of the cap is black, which I take it is correct for KRRC?

[Mike H]

Originally Posted by leigh kitchen

Thanks, I'd worked out the oval black boss, but was thinking of blackened crowned bugle rather than silver coloured.
The top of the cap is black, which I take it is correct for KRRC?

Im away until tomorrow Leigh. I will email you the images pm tomorrow . Mike

[leigh kitchen]

Thanks.

[Toby Purcell]

Many thanks for that thorough rundown at post #30, Mark, which I have passes on to my collaborator at the uniformology.com website.
I have responded with my own thoughts by email.
Best wishes as always,
Toby (aka Frogsmile)

[Jelly Terror]

With regard to the pouch belt ornament, the following may be of interest:

In February of 1935, Lieutenant Colonel T. R. Eastwood, King’s Royal Rifle Corps, Commanding 2nd Battalion, applied to have the cap badge worn by the NCOs and men of his battalion altered from the existing King’s Crown pattern, to that bearing the old Queen’s Crown. He raised the matter in a letter to Major General, Sir Eric Stanley Girdwood, Officer Commanding Northern Ireland District, Belfast, outlining that the subject had been brought to his attention by the Colonel Commandant of the battalion. Eastwood put the case to Girdwood by stating that the crown above the cross of the KRRC officers’ pouch belt ornament had the old pattern Queen’s Crown, whereas the crown on the men’s cap badge bore the King’s.

A decree by His Majesty King Edward VII, when he came to the throne in 1901, stipulated that the correct crown for all regimental badges was the Imperial or Tudor Crown (hereafter referred to as the King’s Crown).

JT EVIIR Decree Doc.jpg

In conformity with his order, the crown on the KRRC officers’ pouch belt ornament was duly altered at that time, but permission for it to be altered back to the Queen’s Crown pattern was however, later granted in 1906.

Eastwood’s letter also stated that the Commanding Officer of the 1st Battalion had previously sought permission from the authorities to have the crown on other ranks’ cap badges altered to conform to that of the pouch belt and was allegedly promised that once existing stocks of badges bearing the King’s Crown had been consumed, the alteration could go ahead. Eastwood went on to point out that this change never actually took place and proposed that this may have been due to the matter either having been inadvertently overlooked or, less likely, because the existing stock of badges in 1906 was so large that it had still not been exhausted. He requested that if the matter was viewed favourably that it might be forwarded to higher authority for due consideration, and so later that same month, Major General Girdwood forwarded Lt. Col Eastwood’s letter to the War Office.

The Director of Ordnance Services wrote back to Girdwood at HQ NID the following April, asking for Eastwood to produce the evidence on which the change of men’s cap badge had been promised. It was also put to him that before any consideration could be given to the matter, the views of the 1st Battalion, the Colonels Commandant and the Colonel in Chief (His Majesty the King) should be ascertained. This lead to the revelation that Eastwood was in fact unable to provide any such documentary evidence relating to permission having previously been granted because the alleged promise was apparently made to the Officer Commanding the 1st Battalion whilst they had been serving in Egypt in 1908, and that there was no written record in his possession. Despite this, Girdwood wrote to the War Office, expressing Eastwood’s wish that authority be sought for the Regiment to be allowed to revert to the original Queen’s Crown cap badge, once existing stocks had been exhausted.

During this time, the Chairman of the Honours & Distinctions Committee made it known that he considered this request to be something that should have been put forward by the Colonels Commandant of the Corps, who should state the views of the Corps as a whole. He highlighted the point that this particular application was being made by the CO of the 2nd Battalion only.

By mid-July 1935, King George V had been approached on the matter. He made it clear that the King’s Crown should continue to be worn on cap badges, but did however acknowledge that since special permission had been granted by King Edward VII for officers to wear the old Peninsula Cross ornament bearing the Hanoverian Crown, that it should not be altered. Consequently, application by the 2nd Battalion for the change in the men’s cap badge was withdrawn. In 1906, the change of pouch belt ornament was approved for officers of the KRRC, and the crown incorporated therein was not of the sealed pattern referred to above.

The file on which this change was approved for officers of the King’s Royal Rifle Corps in 1906, seems not to have been available in 1935, and it was therefore not possible to establish why the ruling of 1901 was departed from, but scrutiny of the Annals of the Kings’ Royal Rifle Corps, Vol. 1, 1913, reveals that the reversion was due to a lack of space within the arms of the cross, required to accommodate the large number of battle honours. His Majesty therefore chose to reinstate ‘the old Peninsula Cross of 1830, with the old crown, and the ‘60’ in the centre, omitting the names of all other campaigns and battles’. This evidently was not so much a change of crown as of the complete ornament.

In 1935, the crown on the KRRC pouch belt ornament was the only one in the clothing badges of the regiment which was not the standard King’s Crown; the latter being the authorised pattern for the officers’ buttons, busby etc., and the cap badge for the men. For this reason, it was decided that the case for breaking away from this sealed pattern was not justified.

JT Peninsula Cross 1830.jpg

It is interesting to note that the purchasing of cap badges for the KRRC after the Great War did not commence until 1930. In April of that year, records show that the stock of badges at Didcot stood at 1403, with another 1100 badges on order, making a total of 2503. Their maintenance figure at that time is shown to have been 1600.

Regards,

JT

[leigh kitchen]

Thanks for that, very interesting & informative.

[Toby Purcell]

Thank you JT, that is useful information that would help avoid an awful lot of confusion at the various auction houses were it to be made known.

[jf42]

Originally Posted by Jelly Terror

With regard to the pouch belt ornament, the following may be of interest:

... the reversion was due to a lack of space within the arms of the cross, required to accommodate the large number of battle honours. His Majesty therefore chose to reinstate ‘the old Peninsula Cross of 1830, with the old crown, and the ‘60’ in the centre, omitting the names of all other campaigns and battles’. This evidently was not so much a change of crown as of the complete ornament.

Just to be clear, feeling rather dense here, but am I right in thinking that this issue turned only on the space available for additional honours on the 'old Peninsula Cross' rather than any particular relationship that the 60th had with an older style of crown.

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by jf42

Just to be clear, feeling rather dense here, but am I right in thinking that this issue turned only on the space available for additional honours on the 'old Peninsula Cross' rather than any particular relationship that the 60th had with an older style of crown.

It seems to have been a combination of this, plus King George V's acknowledgement of the special permission given by his father for the 'Peninsula Cross' to be reinstated, rendering obsolete the pouch belt ornament bearing the King's Crown (which itself must be a rare beast, since its period of issue/use lasted only from 1902 to 1906, and a lovely example of which is on display at the Rifles Museum, Winchester).

Regards,

JT

[Mike H]

I've done a bit more research into the crossbelt badges.
There are 5 from 1830 up to 2007 when the Rifles was formed. The KRRC CBP was allowed to be worn within the GJ Bde from 1958-1966 and 1966-2007 within the RGJ.
As Jeff stated earlier in the thread the original Peninsula cross was worn this then had more battle honours added so you find roleica and vimiera at the top ,either side of point. Taku forts and Pekin at the bottom of the lower arm.
This then changes to the pattern with kings royal rifle corps and just a bugle horn in the centre. Victorian crown.
1901 this changes to a KC,same design of cross to previous.
1906 with permission the Peninsula cross returns but with the addition of Busaco on the end of the western arm.

[Mike H]

I've come across some more information on this.
Post 1905 the crossbelt plate should have the "Busaco" on the left arm but I have evidence that the original Peninsula cross without the "Busaco" honour was being produced.
I have an example of this en route to me. Its HM silver,the year letter is "O" but unsure of whether its 1913 or 1938.