RNAS eagles

[zorgon]

It is quite often notoriously difficult to identify the period and use of metal eagles used on Commonwealth Naval and Air Force uniforms.
As I understand it, one of the generally accepted determinants of RNAS eagles is that they initially incorporated three posts or more accurately, a WWI era eagle with three posts was used by the RNAS. They can be found in pickled brass, or gold gilt and cast from various brass/bronze alloys. Many were manufactured in two, carefully soldered pieces. The back plate frequently had two small vent holes which released the gas formed during heating and soldering. They were manufactured between 1913 and 1918 for the RNAS and all the examples below measure 54mm in width, plus or minus 1mm. One general observation I’ve noticed is they all have a more slender and elegant wing compared to later issued wings such as the WWI RAF versions.
Initially, the eagle faced right (from the viewers perspective) as they were worn on the left sleeve (and the eagle was always supposed to be looking “behind”). In June of 1917, regulations approved the eagles to be worn on both sleeves and thus the left handed eagle was introduced.
Below are examples of what I think meet the requirements for RNAS eagles but I’m open to discussion by those who are more knowledgeable and experienced in this area of collecting, particularly for the last item.
The first composite image illustrates a RNAS sleeve eagle which is described by Warren Carroll as being for the blue uniform. It has the backing plate, three posts and one remaining notched, circular nut. The 2nd picture is similar in design but cast in one piece and has interesting knurled nuts. Perhaps the nuts can reveal something about the date or manufacturer? The 3rd item is a pin conversion of a variation of the three post, single die cast eagle made sometime after 1914. It is not uncommon to find these conversions for those who served overseas and, according to Carroll (p. 41, Eagles Recalled), worn above the left pocket on the khaki uniforms. In the last example, it perhaps requires a little more imagination to be convinced the 3rd post was present before the pin was added. However, there is a slightly raised surface and grind marks in the tail feather area that suggest this is the case. I suspect this pin went onto to a third incarnation as there is a tiny loop on one win tip which could have facilitated its use on a charm or sweetheart. One often finds sweetheart eagles with pin backs making it very difficult, if not impossible, to determine if the given eagle was initially used by a serviceman or made for and given to a loved one, especially I think with RAF and interwar examples.
I would welcome any corrections and expansions by Forum members on any of the above. I recognize this has been discussed in the past and I for one, could use a refresher.

[Alex Rice]

Hi Zorgon
Always good to try and pinpoint the variations etc, they are stunning badges.
Here's a link to an earlier discussion on these eagles which may be of some use.
Cheers,
Alex
http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ad.php?t=43309

[arrestingu]

..just to complicate matters ...the 1918 RAF eagle , I have examples with two bolts ,eagles facing no notch in tail and also the three bolt variety. The early RNAS ,issue is very three dimensional and highly detailed...these are three bolt ,but were issued sometimes with a pin..for wear in tropical clothing. The RNAS,eagle is more distinct in form and more detailed than the later RAF 1918 eagles.

[arrestingu]

RNAS, issue pin back.

[arrestingu]

RNAS pilots eagle.1913 initial issue (directly copied from the Bijou FIX eagles), once heavily gilded Royal Naval Air Service (RNAS) pilot badge. three thin posts to the rear have been removed and replaced by securing pin produced by J & Co The quality of these badges diminished over the years and as different companies began ramping up production the accuracy and level of detail became much lower, much cheaper to produce.

[arrestingu]

Early RNAS, pilot J&Co wing circa 1913/14.

[Badge]

Originally Posted by zorgon

It is quite often notoriously difficult to identify the period and use of metal eagles used on Commonwealth Naval and Air Force uniforms.
As I understand it, one of the generally accepted determinants of RNAS eagles is that they initially incorporated three posts or more accurately, a WWI era eagle with three posts was used by the RNAS. They can be found in pickled brass, or gold gilt and cast from various brass/bronze alloys. Many were manufactured in two, carefully soldered pieces. The back plate frequently had two small vent holes which released the gas formed during heating and soldering. They were manufactured between 1913 and 1918 for the RNAS and all the examples below measure 54mm in width, plus or minus 1mm. One general observation I’ve noticed is they all have a more slender and elegant wing compared to later issued wings such as the WWI RAF versions.
Initially, the eagle faced right (from the viewers perspective) as they were worn on the left sleeve (and the eagle was always supposed to be looking “behind”). In June of 1917, regulations approved the eagles to be worn on both sleeves and thus the left handed eagle was introduced.
Below are examples of what I think meet the requirements for RNAS eagles but I’m open to discussion by those who are more knowledgeable and experienced in this area of collecting, particularly for the last item.
The first composite image illustrates a RNAS sleeve eagle which is described by Warren Carroll as being for the blue uniform. It has the backing plate, three posts and one remaining notched, circular nut. The 2nd picture is similar in design but cast in one piece and has interesting knurled nuts. Perhaps the nuts can reveal something about the date or manufacturer? The 3rd item is a pin conversion of a variation of the three post, single die cast eagle made sometime after 1914. It is not uncommon to find these conversions for those who served overseas and, according to Carroll (p. 41, Eagles Recalled), worn above the left pocket on the khaki uniforms. In the last example, it perhaps requires a little more imagination to be convinced the 3rd post was present before the pin was added. However, there is a slightly raised surface and grind marks in the tail feather area that suggest this is the case. I suspect this pin went onto to a third incarnation as there is a tiny loop on one win tip which could have facilitated its use on a charm or sweetheart. One often finds sweetheart eagles with pin backs making it very difficult, if not impossible, to determine if the given eagle was initially used by a serviceman or made for and given to a loved one, especially I think with RAF and interwar examples.
I would welcome any corrections and expansions by Forum members on any of the above. I recognize this has been discussed in the past and I for one, could use a refresher.

I have a left facing eagle, die struck, two loops for a cotter pin. I am trying to ID it as to ww1 or ww2 and RNAS or RAF. Everything in Warren Carroll's book is all screw posts and pin backs. Anyone help me to identify it and date it. Did they make Eagles sleeve badges with loops and a cotter pin?
Any help would be appreciated.
Badger

[Badge]

Originally Posted by zorgon

It is quite often notoriously difficult to identify the period and use of metal eagles used on Commonwealth Naval and Air Force uniforms.
As I understand it, one of the generally accepted determinants of RNAS eagles is that they initially incorporated three posts or more accurately, a WWI era eagle with three posts was used by the RNAS. They can be found in pickled brass, or gold gilt and cast from various brass/bronze alloys. Many were manufactured in two, carefully soldered pieces. The back plate frequently had two small vent holes which released the gas formed during heating and soldering. They were manufactured between 1913 and 1918 for the RNAS and all the examples below measure 54mm in width, plus or minus 1mm. One general observation I’ve noticed is they all have a more slender and elegant wing compared to later issued wings such as the WWI RAF versions.
Initially, the eagle faced right (from the viewers perspective) as they were worn on the left sleeve (and the eagle was always supposed to be looking “behind”). In June of 1917, regulations approved the eagles to be worn on both sleeves and thus the left handed eagle was introduced.
Below are examples of what I think meet the requirements for RNAS eagles but I’m open to discussion by those who are more knowledgeable and experienced in this area of collecting, particularly for the last item.
The first composite image illustrates a RNAS sleeve eagle which is described by Warren Carroll as being for the blue uniform. It has the backing plate, three posts and one remaining notched, circular nut. The 2nd picture is similar in design but cast in one piece and has interesting knurled nuts. Perhaps the nuts can reveal something about the date or manufacturer? The 3rd item is a pin conversion of a variation of the three post, single die cast eagle made sometime after 1914. It is not uncommon to find these conversions for those who served overseas and, according to Carroll (p. 41, Eagles Recalled), worn above the left pocket on the khaki uniforms. In the last example, it perhaps requires a little more imagination to be convinced the 3rd post was present before the pin was added. However, there is a slightly raised surface and grind marks in the tail feather area that suggest this is the case. I suspect this pin went onto to a third incarnation as there is a tiny loop on one win tip which could have facilitated its use on a charm or sweetheart. One often finds sweetheart eagles with pin backs making it very difficult, if not impossible, to determine if the given eagle was initially used by a serviceman or made for and given to a loved one, especially I think with RAF and interwar examples.
I would welcome any corrections and expansions by Forum members on any of the above. I recognize this has been discussed in the past and I for one, could use a refresher.

I have a left facing eagle, die struck, two loops for a cotter pin. I am trying to ID it as to ww1 or ww2 and RNAS or RAF. Everything in Warren Carroll's book is all screw posts and pin backs. Anyone help me to identify it and date it. Did they make Eagles sleeve badges with loops and a cotter pin?
Any help would be appreciated.
Badge

[Mtnman]

Just wanted to add a piece I purchased. It is RNAS pilot material. It was originally a three screw post World War I eagle but the pilot had the jeweler saw off the screw posts and then the jeweler attached the separate crown and attached a World War I pin assembly. This particular piece has the very large pin directly laid upon the hinge roller to be solder attached. With the early heavy tunic material of the overseas pilots, I can understand why the pin would be so large so as to not be broken but even so, the pin was bent at the end from its use in the heavy material. I did my best to get a very close up picture of the pin hinge and catch with my camera in macro mode which changes the visual effect somewhat but you can easily see the intended section better. Under the pin hinge on the right hand wing, if you look to the left of the base of the pin hinge, you can see a portion of the remains of the sawed off right screw post beneath. Enjoy

[leigh kitchen]

It's for wear on uniform and not a conversion to a sweetheart?

[Mtnman]

Apparently this particular pilot wore his eagle and crown, jeweler converted piece, on his uniform. I have seen several cast conversions of the actual badges, to sweetheart wings and this one struck me because it didn't have those characteristics I had seen. I was simply going to pass it over, then I saw that it was a pilot's actual badge. So I went ahead and picked it up. I don't know, maybe some of you have examples that are just like this that are sweetheart wings?? The sweetheart wings I have seen that are conversions are cast and dull and Salvador Dali like on the back side.

[Frank Kelley]

Do you have photographic evidence which shows the officer or warrant officer concerned wore it whilst in uniform, do you know the mans name and what are the characteristics you refer to that this particular badge does not have?

Originally Posted by Mtnman

Apparently this particular pilot wore his eagle and crown, jeweler converted piece, on his uniform. I have seen several cast conversions of the actual badges, to sweetheart wings and this one struck me because it didn't have those characteristics I had seen. I was simply going to pass it over, then I saw that it was a pilot's actual badge. So I went ahead and picked it up. I don't know, maybe some of you have examples that are just like this that are sweetheart wings?? The sweetheart wings I have seen that are conversions are cast and dull and Salvador Dali like on the back side.

[Insignia]

Hi, What is it about the eagle that identifies it as being RNAS?

Originally Posted by Mtnman

Apparently this particular pilot wore his eagle and crown, jeweler converted piece, on his uniform. I have seen several cast conversions of the actual badges, to sweetheart wings and this one struck me because it didn't have those characteristics I had seen. I was simply going to pass it over, then I saw that it was a pilot's actual badge. So I went ahead and picked it up. I don't know, maybe some of you have examples that are just like this that are sweetheart wings?? The sweetheart wings I have seen that are conversions are cast and dull and Salvador Dali like on the back side.

[arrestingu]

....to me the badge in question is 100% a RAF, 3 bolt sleeve eagle 1918 pattern, converted to a sweetheart badge by adding crown. The RNAS did not use the crown over eagle badge to designate a pilot.
I believe it is simply an RAF 1918 sweetheart given to a partner, sadly not a pilots badge of any sort.
regards
Steve