Hallmark Help

[badger123]

Not being up to speed with hallmarks, I would appreciate some help/thoughts on this recent badge purchase please.

A few points:

1. I'd rather not go into details about the badge itself (yet) as I may have to go back to the vendor (keeping powder dry and all that).

2. I've had a good look at the many different online sources relating to hallmarks and I think I have an idea of what the hallmark is suggesting but I would like to confirm my thoughts.

3. I have an option to have the badge tested and checked at an assay office (the Sheffield office is quite close to me) but thats a bit of a drastic option!

Anyone know enough about hallmarks to share an opinion? Many thanks, Ivan

[Neil s]

I am not a hallmark expert but it seems to be missing an assay office stamp the date letter and monarch's head suggest Birmingham 1786 but the line the silver to the top might show a piece of silver with hallmark laid into another item it happens with cups and tankards ect. Hallmark usually cut from Georgian spoons

[badger123]

Originally Posted by Neil s

I am not a hallmark expert but it seems to be missing an assay office stamp the date letter and monarch's head suggest Birmingham 1786 but the line the silver to the top might show a piece of silver with hallmark laid into another item it happens with cups and tankards ect. Hallmark usually cut from Georgian spoons

Thanks for your comment Neil. Yes, I clocked that there is no assay stamp (town stamp) but I understand it wasn't unusual for this to happen but, not being knowledgeable about these things, I'm not 100% sure.

I see your point about a cut piece of silver being inlaid! Fortunately having looked carefully, the line you mention is a concentric line around the badge rather than localised and the hallmark is definitely stamped into the badge.

Many thanks.

[mike_vee]

My guess :

Duty mark - George III 1786-1821
Silver mark - Lion passant
Date letter - 'O' York 1800
Makers mark - RJ Robert Jones

.

[gary1666]

I would have said London 1809 - in the majority of Georgian silver where there is no town mark, 99 times out of 100 it's a London mark. The 1809 and 1829 marks very similar, but the 1809 O is slightly more elongated and the Lion has that slightly 'flatter' face in the early mark.
My father has a copy of Jacksons ( its the large volume) which will likely include the maker, but I won't be at his house till Saturday if you want it looking up

[dumdum]

Hi

There is a really good online data base of Maker's Marks for silver:

https://www.silvermakersmarks.co.uk/

It has many marks that are not to be found in Jackson's otherwise really good little book.

Have a REALLY good look at examples of other silver marks to be found on plate, etc. and see if they differ significantly from those on your piece.

Hope this helps.

[badger123]

Originally Posted by gary1666

I would have said London 1809 - in the majority of Georgian silver where there is no town mark, 99 times out of 100 it's a London mark. The 1809 and 1829 marks very similar, but the 1809 O is slightly more elongated and the Lion has that slightly 'flatter' face in the early mark.
My father has a copy of Jacksons ( its the large volume) which will likely include the maker, but I won't be at his house till Saturday if you want it looking up

Gary, anything you can find would be if use, thanks. You seem to confirm that its not unusual to find a hallmark without a town mark which is very useful. Again thanks.

Ivan

[badger123]

Originally Posted by dumdum

Hi

There is a really good online data base of Maker's Marks for silver:

https://www.silvermakersmarks.co.uk/

It has many marks that are not to be found in Jackson's otherwise really good little book.

Have a REALLY good look at examples of other silver marks to be found on plate, etc. and see if they differ significantly from those on your piece.

Hope this helps.

Thanks yes! Its probably the best guide I've seen online so far and where I've got a lot of my info from.

Going through all of the date stamps from each of the different assay offices and comparing the letter 'O' marks, the issue I have is that whilst I can find similar letter Os, I don't seem to be able to find an identical one to this with a rounded bottom with chamfered top:

[badger123]

Originally Posted by mike_vee

My guess :

Duty mark - George III 1786-1821
Silver mark - Lion passant
Date letter - 'O' York 1800
Makers mark - RJ Robert Jones

.

Mike thanks. Agree with the above but I'm struggling to match the York letter 'O' with the one on my hallmark?

[dumdum]

Originally Posted by badger123

Thanks yes! Its probably the best guide I've seen online so far and where I've got a lot of my info from.

Going through all of the date stamps from each of the different assay offices and comparing the letter 'O' marks, the issue I have is that whilst I can find similar letter Os, I don't seem to be able to find an identical one to this with a rounded bottom with chamfered top:

Hi

A pleasure to help! I can't recall how I found out about this source as, until then, I'd only had Jackson. These booklets are to be found, well-thumbed, in what few antique shops there are left.

Look, I don't want to cause trouble but if you can't find a mark that matches what is on your piece there is an explanation but it's not a good one...

[badger123]

Originally Posted by dumdum

Hi


Look, I don't want to cause trouble but if you can't find a mark that matches what is on your piece there is an explanation but it's not a good one...

No, its not causing trouble, thats exactly why I raised the question over the hallmark in the first place i.e. I have my suspicions. Therefore I'm grateful for your and other peoples input.

Whilst the badge itself is in my opinion genuine, its the hallmark that doesn't seem quite right. What it comes down to is whether this is it a hallmarking mistake or a deliberate attempt to deceive?

Many thanks for you help. Ivan

[mike_vee]

Originally Posted by badger123

Whilst the badge itself is in my opinion genuine, its the hallmark that doesn't seem quite right. What it comes down to is whether this is it a hallmarking mistake or a deliberate attempt to deceive?

While digging around on the net I saw a very similar (same four marks) hallmark on a spoon which is what I based my "guess" on.

This could fit into Neil's suggestion ?

with hallmark laid into another item it happens with cups and tankards ect. Hallmark usually cut from Georgian spoons

.

[dumdum]

Originally Posted by badger123

No, its not causing trouble, thats exactly why I raised the question over the hallmark in the first place i.e. I have my suspicions. Therefore I'm grateful for your and other peoples input.

Whilst the badge itself is in my opinion genuine, its the hallmark that doesn't seem quite right. What it comes down to is whether this is it a hallmarking mistake or a deliberate attempt to deceive?

Many thanks for you help. Ivan

Hi Ivan

I'm only trying to return the favour that so many Forum members have helped me with.

Not being an expert on h/m silver but I really don't like look of the lion passant- seems a little "awkward"...

See if you can match it to any other marks on known silver.

[Alex Rice]

I don't know enough about hallmarks to comment on the mark but there are a couple of things which raise alarms for me. I have circled them on the image. The lion has a definite seam around it which I don't think should be there on a normal hallmark. Second, the maker mark seems to have been stamped over an existing mark, there seems to be the remains of a border sticking out the lower portion.
Cheers,
Alex

[Neil s]

The over stamping while not ideal is sometimes done on silver when a silversmith has to do repair work /alteration and the piece has to be re-assayed if a different smith did the new work he would over stamp the old mark. The problem is we are judging a mark without knowing the possibilities as we have no idea what the mark is on.