40th Regt of Foot, Victorian or Georgian crown

[Paul Spellman]

I picked this up for myself at Yate yesterday but I have been struggling to positively ID this plate's usage to the 40th of Foot, I know it's an early type Sphinx used by the Regiment but was thinking c.1860's
It's probably me looking too much but I'm now thinking the crown is more Georgian than Victorian any opinions or help with an ID of use would be much appreciated.
Thanks
Paul

[jf42]

While not being familiar with the badge, a reasonable question would be on what piece of headgear was this intended to be worn? It would appear not to be a badge from a full dress shako since the Line all had universal plates from 1816

Regimental insignia, other than the number, with flank coy badges, were not permitted to be worn on the Kilmarnock forage cap, and after the abolition of flank coys only the number was permitted. This order did have to be repeated, however, since some regiments, in defiance of the regulation, did for certain periods wear a regimental emblem on the forage cap.

One consideration is that in the case of the 40th Regiment only the two flank companies were present in Egypt and so they alone were entitled to the Sphinx emblem awarded for that campaign. Although the badge in question seems quite large and overly elaborate for its purpose, perhaps it was worn with a grenade or bugle horn on the forage cap of the grenadiers and light company of the 40th

With the abolition of the infantry's flank coys circa 1860, special flank coy distinctions could be adopted by a regiment as a whole, as in the 46th for example. This 'XL' Sphinx badge might have been one adopted by the 40th regiment in the same way. Hence the Sphinx worn by the Prince of Wales' Volunteers (South Lancs) after the union of the 40th and 82nd in 1881. It might be more likely for a badge of that size ( if i am judging aright)

In general, though, it was only with the adoption of the Glengarry as universal forage cap after 1868, that regiments began to sport emblems peculiar to their corps on the forage cap.

About the same time, we start seeing regimental emblems being worn on the puggaree of the early tropical service sun helmet; the Ellwood or 'airpipe' model, for example.

The badge in question might, therefore date from the period running up to 1881 rather than earlier. The 40th were in India from 1872 and remained until 1884, although the regimental number was done away with in 1881.

All in all your initial 1860s' estimate seems reasonable

[norfolk regt man]

damm nice looking item, when ever it was worn

[Jeff Mc William]

Hi Paul
I must say, the style looks pre Victorian to me, a very nice badge, altho' as jf42 says, the sphinx and Egypt was only granted to the two Flank Coys (6th July 1802).
In my opinion it is not a headdress badge (or even part of one) and this design is not shown in the excellent history by Smythies (published in 1894) or indeed in Parkyn either .. although, depending on the size and fixings, I guess it could be part of an early SBP. All I can offer at the moment I'm afraid. Regards Jeff

[Paul Spellman]

Thanks for the answers/comments, I should of shown the reverse also which shows the fixings. I'm sure the badge is not part of a larger device, I do not rule out it being a headdress badge based on the screw posts but I think it is either a SBP or Ensigns Colours Plate possibly worn on the cup/socket, the shape would fit for that use. Probably a bit big for a pouch badge.
I will look through some stuff again later in case I have missed something. Not had enough coffee yet.
Paul

[grenadierguardsman]

Originally Posted by Paul Spellman

I picked this up for myself at Yate yesterday but I have been struggling to positively ID this plate's usage to the 40th of Foot, I know it's an early type Sphinx used by the Regiment but was thinking c.1860's
It's probably me looking too much but I'm now thinking the crown is more Georgian than Victorian any opinions or help with an ID of use would be much appreciated.
Thanks
Paul

Thats a beauty.
Andy

[badgecollector]

magnificent
bc

[jf42]

Seeing this view, the ornament certainly looks too large and heavy for a forage cap or pagri badge.

Would the Sphinx have been used regimentally in the 40th before the abolition of flank companies? The Sphinx first appears officially on the regimental colours presented in 1858 (the 'Old Spink' emblem having apparently been added to the previous regimental colour late in its service, according to Wythies, (p.491).

http://www.archive.org/stream/histor.../search/sphinx

[Paul Spellman]

An interesting note on this image showing the Sphinx worn in the Cap by an Officer of the 40th in the 1840's.
I came across another image of Lt.Col George Gray of the 30th of Foot who was killed at the siege of Badajoz in 1812, he is wearing a Sphinx above his SBP plate, although not the 40th, it appears the 30th adopted the Sphinx much earlier than I thought as well.
Paul
Thanks for the nice comments.

[mooke07]

Splendid piece Paul,

The 10th Foot (North Lincoln) wore a silver Sphinx inscribed 'Egypt' on their shoulder belt plates 1830-36 although authorised to wear the Sphinx from 6th July 1802. I have not seen the device worn earlier unlike your picture from 1812.

Would look nice in Australian sunshine, cheers Dean

[Paul Spellman]

Thanks Dean,
I agree it's hard to find any early Insignia with the Sphinx despite being authorised, in the areas I collect its wear does not seem prevelant until around 1870, some Regiments such as the 8th of Foot/KLR hardly ever used the Sphinx on Insignia.
I had a couple of good chats with your Chief UK Scout at Yate on Sunday, it was good to see you kept him on toes going back and forth to dealers
East wishes
Paul

[mooke07]

Indeed Paul your badge is a great research item.

Chief scout has kept me busy here I can assure you and I have left no stone unturned seeking out his shoulder title wants list. If it wasn't such fun !

Cheers Dean

[Paul Spellman]

Dean,
One of the better and enjoyable sides of the hobby, helping each other out.
Paul