Brass Para Non-voided Wings

[leigh kitchen]

Thanks button.

[Frank Kelley]

A dealer who wrote a book?
Oh dear.

Originally Posted by Jack8

The Palestine reference was the selling pitch of the Dealers offering these badges for sale singularly or in boxes at Militaria fairs a couple of years ago, I didn't buy the story then and don't believe it today.

In my opinion this pattern of badge is a fake, other fakes have been produced in a brassy looking metal as well as white metal. These badges are being offered for sale as genuine, so it is up to the collectors to decide if they want them in their collection. I have one as an example of a fake badge along with other fake examples such as the wing die flaw with the pointy wing tips pattern, which incidentally was sold to me many years ago by a dealer who wrote a book. To this day he maintains it is genuine.


Jack

[Frank Kelley]

I would have to say that the "story" would have to be just that and certainly nothing more, I'd never heard of it until now, despite having known a number of both officers and toms down the years, some who had fought in the Second World War, other who had just missed out, these last, for the most part, just young lads from the GSC, others who had transferred into the regiment.
Of the badges they still had, some of which I have in my collection, not one was anything like the badge discussed in this thread, they were all just perfectly normal plated brass or white metal badges, some plated, others not and with both voided and solid crowns.

It really is quite remarkable the lengths that a small number of people will go to, in order to authenticate completely spurious badges.

Originally Posted by leigh kitchen

What is the Palestine story? "Old" brass stock shipped out to meet demand when white metal badges weren't available? A contract mistakenly met with brass instead of white metal badges? Locally made in die stamped brass?
I'm assuming it's one or more of that unlikely trinity.

[Jack8]

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley

A dealer who wrote a book?
Oh dear.

Should be all that's needed.🤥

[Jack8]

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley

I would have to say that the "story" would have to be just that and certainly nothing more, I'd never heard of it until now, despite having known a number of both officers and toms down the years, some who had fought in the Second World War, other who had just missed out, these last, for the most part, just young lads from the GSC, others who had transferred into the regiment.
Of the badges they still had, some of which I have in my collection, not one was anything like the badge discussed in this thread, they were all just perfectly normal plated brass or white metal badges, some plated, others not and with both voided and solid crowns.

It really is quite remarkable the lengths that a small number of people will go to, in order to authenticate completely spurious badges.

I agree Frank👍

Jack

[leigh kitchen]

Presumably "straight out of the woodwork, barn find, back of the stores, attic find, found in an old sealed up German bunker" didn't carry enough ooomph for the Palestine Paras purveyors.

[Frank Kelley]

Well, I don't have a copy, no plans to buy one either, ever!

Originally Posted by Jack8

Should be all that's needed.🤥

[tcrown]

Thanks for everyone's contribution.
I'm not trying to imply the Palestine story has any ground.

Frank wrote 'It really is quite remarkable the lengths that a small number of people will go to, in order to authenticate completely spurious badges.'
I'm not trying anything. It looks to me this forum is a place for debate and research and it is fun to discuss other possibilities unless the 'truth' about these badges has been established forever which I don't think is the case given the numerous variants that existed.

I believe I have to come back to the facts.
Here we have an original 1945 dated beret which has been worn for some time with a clear imprint of a para badge on it and two lug holes that are 40 mm apart.
On the other hand, a brass or yellow metal para badge very different from an WW2 original which came with the beret as a perfect match (lug to lug distance).

One possibility could be the original badge was lost and replaced with this one. The fact that no cardboard backing plate was present to support the badge could be an indication of a replacement but I'm not sure these backings were always worn.

Now for the badge. It is certainly very different from the WW2 genuine badges from both metal color and engraving perspectives. The badge is old and hasn't been produced recently (Thomas, thanks for the idea but I won't wash it to make it shiny...). As for the lugs soldering, I don't see the grey material that Jack refers to.

I don't think it is a reproduction or a restrike made for collectors but it is a fake considering the wartime badges characteristics. Could it be a total different pattern produced at some point maybe for veterans?

[fougasse1940]

The idea to clean your badge was because I'm not at all convinced it is a G/M badge, just a dirty W/M one. At least take a pic of it next to a G/M badge to see the difference.

The fact that your beret has two holes doesn't guarantee your beret originally carried this particular badge. Cardboard stiffener, or any other, was an individual choice. Some did use it, some didn't.

The only badge I'm aware of that was re-made specifically for veterans is the LRDG badge. I've seen many veterans with fake badges, originality is not realy important to many of them, what it stands for all the more.

I don't read Frank's comment as aimed at you, but instead at scrupulous dealers, don't let it keep you from further posting though, you started an informative thread here.

Rgds, Thomas.

[tcrown]

[QUOTE=fougasse1940;414772]The idea to clean your badge was because I'm not at all convinced it is a G/M badge, just a dirty W/M one. At least take a pic of it next to a G/M badge to see the difference.

Thanks Thomas for your message and encouragement.
I took a photo with another W/M badge (it could be a fake) and a Canadian G/M badge (fake).
I've also posted two W/M badges in my album for your review.http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...p?albumid=3226 One is heavily polished (or bulled as O. Lock puts it). I believe this one to be original. I have my doubts about the other one.

Cheers
Pierre

[fougasse1940]

Excellent, I'm now fully convinced your badge is W/M.

Rgds, Thomas.

[Frank Kelley]

Hello Jack,
What were these "boxes" actually like, how many of these appalling badges did each contain?
Do you know who started peddling them?
Regards Frank

Originally Posted by Jack8

The Palestine reference was the selling pitch of the Dealers offering these badges for sale singularly or in boxes at Militaria fairs a couple of years ago, I didn't buy the story then and don't believe it today.

In my opinion this pattern of badge is a fake, other fakes have been produced in a brassy looking metal as well as white metal. These badges are being offered for sale as genuine, so it is up to the collectors to decide if they want them in their collection. I have one as an example of a fake badge along with other fake examples such as the wing die flaw with the pointy wing tips pattern, which incidentally was sold to me many years ago by a dealer who wrote a book. To this day he maintains it is genuine.


Jack

[Jack8]

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley

Hello Jack,
What were these "boxes" actually like, how many of these appalling badges did each contain?
Do you know who started peddling them?
Regards Frank

Hello Frank,

From memory they were about six inches square and made of brown cardboard. There were some inked markings on them which were supposedly MOD marks. I would gues that each box may have contained fifty or more badges.

I don't know how much each box was selling for but each badge was five or six pounds.

Unfortunately I don't know the two separate dealers who were selling them. It was not any of the well known ones such as Ron Flood, Geoff Newman, Peter Taylor, Steve Britton, Les Martin or Ginge Mather.

They were being sold at a fair about two or three years ago. I have seen individual badges for sale since then but not the full boxes.

I did buy one of the badges as an example which I will dig out and post a picture of.

Jack

[magpie]

If it's the same ones then they are White boxes with badges wrapped up in tissue paper, they had enough to waste by cutting the wings down and removing the crowns to make 3 or 4 variations etc, they sold for about £30 as mint and as found in an army store if I remember correctly.

Obviously not the same ones I saw then jack, I think it was Yate on our first visit.

[Jack8]

Originally Posted by magpie

If it's the same ones then they are White boxes with badges wrapped up in tissue paper, they had enough to waste by cutting the wings down and removing the crowns to make 3 or 4 variations etc, they sold for about £30 as mint and as found in an army store if I remember correctly.

Obviously not the same ones I saw then jack, I think it was Yate on our first visit.

I'm fairly sure the ones I saw were loose in brown cardboard boxes also at Yate.

Jack