RAF Radar Operator/Wireless Operator

[SAS1]

Can anyone give positive Identification to these two badges re trade, date and service?

I have the badge with the red 'O' as a WW2 RAF radar operator, and indeed have a photo of it being worn by an RAF Airman circa WW2.

The other I have as a WW2 RAF wireless operator variation. Although in 'RAF' colours and with a similar red centrepiece, is it RAF and if so what is the significance of the red fist?

[Quicksilver]

Various cloth trade patches were worn in the 1940s and 1950s. The ones you show may have been worn by the RAF. They were certainly worn by Royal Signals class 2 or B Tradesmen.

There are four and a half pages on the subject of Royal Signals Telegraphist and Technician Trade Flashes in 'The Royal Corps of Signals: Unit Histories of the Corps (1920-2001) and its antecedents Supplementary Volume", by Cliff Lord. Published by Helion. See pages 276-280

The book states-

There are two types of flash:

CIRCLE WITH LIGHTNING BOLTS (1940s to early 1950s and 1961 for a few years until No.2 dress was introduced)

MAILED FIRST WITH LIGHTNING BOLTS (early 1950s to 1961)

The shape appears to denote the time they were worn:
SMALL OBLONG EARLY 1940S
LARGE OBLONG WITH TOP DOMED MID 1940S TO EARLY 1950S
LARGE OBLONG EARLY 1950S TO 1961
SMALL OBLONG 1961 TO 1962
As a rough guide, a dark blue background was used during the 1940s and early 1950s and was then replaced with a khaki background.

The red circle with white lightnings on dark blue was worn by R Sigs Radio Mechanics
The red fist with white lightnings on dark blue was worn by Operator wireless and keyboard

Similar patches were worn by REME and RAOC mechanics which specialized in repairing signals equipment. Their circles and lightnings were not white.

Generally speaking these patches or flashes were mainly unauthorized but tolerated. They were made up in the military tailors. However, I have reason to believe in the early 1940s they were authorized and the 1961 badge was also authorized.

Hope that helps.
Quicksilver

[SAS1]

Thanks very much for your comprehensive answer Quicksilver.

I had a vague notion that the Army had worn 'coloured' badges (IE not just khaki and white) and so was wondering if they might be Army, sigs in particular.

In both cases the badge matches RAF colouring, dark blue wool backing and light blue lightening flashes, but I've not come across either the red fist being worn in the RAF and initially an O of any colour. But having got the badge I did find this photo of the O (almost certainly red) being worn by a RAF bod. The shoulder Eagle, on a dark backing would denote it was pre-about 1948, when the change was made to blue-grey backings. So it would indicate wartime or very immediate post war.

The shape (in the airman photo) would tally with your notes of a mid-1940s on badge, and would also be consistent with a standard RAF badge. The standard 'fist and sparks' badge in pale blue on dark blue (or red on tan) in the RAF denotes a wireless (or Wireless telegraphy) operator, both air and ground.

I noted (from the back of my mind somewhere) that the red O was radar operator, but Radar (or Radio) Mechanic would seem more likely. The red fist confuses me a little. Do you happen to know what an Operator Wireless and Keyboard entailed?

Cheers

[Quicksilver]

You are right, Artillery did have a similar B2 badge. It had a red circle and red flashes. Forget the trade as I don't know much about artillery but think it was radar. Signals never had blue flashes. Please note that the Dutch Forces had similar trade badges with all sorts of colours and to a lesser extent Belgium.
Operator Wireless & Keyboard was a trade brought out later in WW2 as there was a need for operators who could use both wireless and a teleprinter. Also with the introduction of Creed High Speed equipment there was a requirement for a knowledge of Morse, Keyboard, and slip reading. The latter was sending of Morse at 100 wpm by tape and receiving it on tape and playing it back slowed down for it to be typed up. This system, which was labour and skill intensive virtually doubled transmission time from the rather slow teleprinter network. Eventually it was replaced by 75 baud teleprinters which were just as fast did not require as much work and less skilled operators.
Quicksilver