Inniskillings arm badge

[GTB]

I believe this to be a 6 DG NCO's arm badge but would welcome comments.
Size 3.6 cm x 3.2 cm; 2 age-darkened copper loops at rear, E & W, 1" apart.

Also have a superb condition thick white buff leather belt with frosted gilt 2-part buckle. On circle 'INNISKILLING' and 2 fleurets; tongue has the 3-turreted castle with flag flying to viewer's right, all on a fine-lined backgound.
Ink-stamped on inside of belt 'BH & G Ltd. 1939' and a large fig. 2 above. Too bulky to scan and as yet still without a good camera, I'm afraid.

Both items came to me separately, the belt courtesy of a relative.

All comments welcome

GTB

[irishhorse]

It's a collar badge, worn in facing pairs.
,

[GTB]

Many thanks, irishhorse,

I thought it a tad large for a collar badge. Were there any date restrictions as to wear?

GTB

[John Mulcahy]

GTB

as member IH correctly points out these are O/R collar badges to 6th (Inniskilling) Dragoons. (IH if you do not mind I will provide an answer to the question).

It is pattern 4729/1898.

First sealed on Nov. 1 1898 for tunics and frocks, the sealed pattern card is held by the IWM

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30065650

The badge continued to be used by the 5th Royal Inniskilling Dragoon Guards , in a silver plated version worn by Officers, the RSM and the Bandmaster in no 1 dress and by the band master on the frock coat (source THE DRESS DISTINCTIONS OF THE 5TH. ROYAL INNISKILLING DRAGOON GUARDS, Cox. 1959)

Latterly also worn by the band of the 5th RIDG in full dress (source. British Military Band Uniforms - Cavalry Regiments, Wendy Skelton, 2008)

As a regimental plan for the unification of dress between the 5th Dragoon Guards and the 6th Dragoons was not prepared until 1927/28 (source Change and Challenge: The Story of the 5th Royal Inniskilling Dragoon Guards 1928-1978 Together with a Short Account of Their Parent Regiments the 5th Princess Charlotte of Wales's Dragoon Guards and the 6th Inniskilling Dragoons by Sir Cecil Blacker, page xxviii.) and ,as the 5th RIDG appear only to have worn it in a silver plated format, a likely period of wear for a WM version is c. 1898 - c. 1928. Indeed, you will see from the pattern card that it was declared obsolete on 31 Jan. 1929. It was worn in facing pairs flags flying outwards.

John

[Malcolm Davey]

This White metal Arm Badge is shown in Linaker & Dine's book on page 72 Left Centre B.

Malc

[John Mulcahy]

Originally Posted by Malcolm Davey

This White metal Arm Badge is shown in Linaker & Dine's book on page 72 Left Centre B.

Malc

It is indeed Malc but in describing this they do make it clear that there is no definitive information available to them regarding its use.

They mention that the WM and silver versions of this badge MAY (my emphasis) have been worn by the Inniskillings Sqn of the 5/6 Dragoons and it is BELIEVED (again my emphasis) that the pattern was originally worn as a cap badge by the Inniskillings Service Sqn. formed as the Divisional Cavalry of the Ulster Division (source given as T Wylie in discussion with W. Lambert.

I love the face that the two authors quote their sources.

Not trying to be nit picky here, merely adding the the body of knowledge. I have one of these WMs badges in my collection but have never been 100% certain of it.

John

[GTB]

Thanks, John, for a very comprehensive answer; and also Malc for your input.
So my badge falls definitively under the collars section. I am making a horde of changes to my collection since joining the Forum!

Would you have any info concerning the buff belt I described? I would think that such items were laid up with commencement of hostilities.

GTB

[John Mulcahy]

Originally Posted by GTB

Would you have any info concerning the buff belt I described? I would think that such items were laid up with commencement of hostilities.

GTB

I am afraid I cannot help much with the belt, such an item is not shown in Cox's book , all the waist belts and pouch belts in use at the time are shown with plain buckles, tips and slides. Only the gold lace girdle is shown with a regimental pattern buckle and it is not as you describe.

Regarding possible use see the attached Pathe news clips for inspiration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuiI2_Cn3o8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHle47BbIJ4


I do assume it is 5RIDG as the Fusiliers were likely to display a "27" or the word "Fusiliers" on buckles I would think.

[billy]

Hi I have posted these two badges for your thoughts a recent find and it resembles Malc,s but in brass? and with a slider, doors the same and rear looks fine and slider looks good also! The other similar to the collar - number of bricks 3 as the collar and doorway with rounded top and with a scroll all piercings are nice, (When I posted last it never really did get sorted out as to good or bad?)

But was there an Economy version of this badge as the 1st seems to be, John has seen the 2nd badge and all we thought of was an Arm-badge? But have seen the threads on here with pictures and they are Silver! So would appreciate your thoughts, billy

[Alan O]

There was a fake. It's no official brass economy version.

[billy]

Hi Alan thanks for your Information on this how old was /where these made post W.W. 1 ? Any more info on it would be appreciated, all the best billy

[Alan O]

Billy

They match a modern die, KLR can give you chapter and verse about why there was no 1916 version.

Al