17th NCO Arm Mottos dates ?

[mac mcconnell]

Had a great day yesterday in the company of Mick Holtby at the Regimental Museum which is now closed over winter so I had the place to myself.

In the conference room is a display of medals and Panting's of Sgt Nunnerley. He charged with The Light Brigade as a Corporal and was promoted to Sgt the next day. He left the regiment in 1857 due to forced reductions in Army size ,he then joined the Lancashire Hussars and served until 1881. He died in 1905 and was buried with full military honours.
Many 17th Light Brigade survivors took to wearing their arm mottos on their Crimean Medals once they had left the Regiment. Interesting, in Nunnerleys picture as a Hussar he is wearing the Arm motto on his Crimean Medal whilst in uniform.
Now to my current quandary the date of introduction of this particular type of Arm motto. I have 2 definitive dates by hallmark from Firmin 1865 and Bent and Parker 1905 both of these arm mottos are very different from each other. Nunnerleys seems to be in between the two in design and as were I thought there had been a change in design in1905 I now believe it was much earlier. I am hoping to uncase the display on my next visit to see if there is a Hallmark. Or does any one have a hallmarked example ?. It is very similar to the Bent & Parker type of 1905. The big giveaway are the gapped teeth also the swallow tails have a distinct cut/groove at the v. and the line of the upper eye sockets are angled down giving it a sad look. I took photos of the paintings and Arm motto. Strangely the Artist (his sister) Shows the Arm motto above the tapes.

Best Mac

[mac mcconnell]

here are the 3 types Firmin ...........Nunnerleys TBC...... Bent & Parker 1905. Picture paints a thousand words. I also suspect this type to be concaved at the rear.

Mac

[mac mcconnell]

whilst researching I found these pictures of a boy dressed by Nunnerley for a Gala. These are his miniature group of interest is another small skull device on the metal bar, again these are in the current display though some of the miniatures are missing.
Sorry to bore everyone with more Motto stuff but I am an addict.............I blame Griff

Mac

[GriffMJ]

Originally Posted by mac mcconnell

here are the 3 types Firmin ...........Nunnerleys TBC...... Bent & Parker 1905. Picture paints a thousand words. I also suspect this type to be concaved at the rear.

Mac

Mac

Pre 1930 arm badges tended to have a plate on the back. Also ..... have you got a makers mark image foir the Bent & Parker?

[mac mcconnell]

No Griff as far as Bent and Parker go I am going on whats in Linaker and Dine, and also whats written in the Lancer Vedette 1981 by WOII D Fagg.
The actual transformation from the original 1865 is quiet bold.

Most of the ones I have seen seem to be Indian/locally made. The painting by his sister when you stand and look at it in the flesh is very accurate in detail so I am pretty sure its the original arm motto . I think the group came to the Regiment back in the 1960,s.

Just trying to find out when and why the style was changed rather like all the Mottos you have researched at great length I am now finding more and more variants of Arm motto.

Best Mac

[mac mcconnell]

Griff I am still digging those pictures of a Nunnerley take us to between 1858 -1888. How ever the picture of the child1902 is clearly showing some of his uniform Lance cap for one thing.
I am wondering if he sat later for his sister Ive asked Mick Holtby if theres any dates. There was another article back in 1977 about Sergeant Major Duncans Arm Motto who served 1821 - 1846 well before the documented and hallmarked Firmin. However its the same type as Nunnerleys who also left the Regiment in 1857 again well before the documented Firmin. It dose state in Linaker and Dine that non Hallmarked mottos were being worn before 1865. which I believe to be this gapped tooth type.

I have another avenue to explore see what that brings up

Mac

Just talked to Mick the date for the large Nunnerley painting is thought to be 1891 which is what I suspected he sat later for the painting.

[GriffMJ]

Mac

Are there ant images of these early arm badges ..... in the flesh?

[mac mcconnell]

Griff its the one I started this thread with Sgt Nunnerleys.

[GriffMJ]

Mac

That is the Bent & Parker Chad. I have some images of cast versions of this..... also a back plated version thats named.

[mac mcconnell]

The Arm motto with the red background is the same as Nunnerleys but its different to the 1905 Bent and Parker. There's no mention of Bent and Parker in Linaker and Dine before 1903. It mentions non hallmarked silver arm badges to the 17th prior to 1865 possibly from German silver. The case continues thanks for those images I think I know were the red background one is.

Best Mac

[mac mcconnell]

Well had a good chat with Gordon Dine over Arm mottos on Sunday. Whilst he could give me no fresh information it was a very informative chat.
So it very much looks like a trip to the Regimental Archives . I still need to check Sergeant Nunnerleys Arm motto for any marks.

I find it most interesting that Troop Sergeant Duggans family have his Arm motto when he served from 1821 -1846 and died in 1867. So he never charged with the Light brigade which could of explained why he had one like Nunnerley but he was no longer serving in 1854.
So it could have been a gift who knows. Well more digging to do

Mac

[mac mcconnell]

Well still pushing on with the Research should have an update very soon just putting the final bits together but safe to say another bit in the jigsaw has been found.

Mac

[mac mcconnell]

Well when I realised another Arm motto was to be found I didn't think it would happen so quickly. After realising Nunnerleys and Duncans Arm mottos were the same but different from the Bent & Parker in a small way the hunt was on . I had a chat with Gordon Dine who was helpful but could not give me much more information other than what was in his excellent book.
When one came up for sale the other week and Hallmarked you can imagine my delight it was dated 1863. Some first class research from Dognose (Trev) found the Hallmark to be passed in 1864 .
The Arm Motto was made by a William Pimm and he started around 1860. Now its possible as mentioned in the David Linaker Gordon Dines book that there may have been unmarked silver and white metal Arm mottos around making very hard to date there initial use.
For many years the Bench mark has been the 1865 Firmin now I hope I have proof of an earlier one by hallmark not only that ,but it also shows that Bent & Parker in 1906 actually were in keeping with their Arm motto being closer to the William Pimm variant ,.
The Arm motto is in great shape still retains many floors from its manufacture not polished out. strange how to very different types were in use at the same time.
Picture shows the Pimm on the left next to the Firmin.

The Arm motto hunt continues

Mac

[Mike H]

Excellent work Mac.

[yorkstone]

You may find this previous post interesting


http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ad.php?t=35361


Regards

Stephen