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  #1  
Old 26-02-15, 06:21 PM
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Default Irish Regt dress changes?

I heard a story about one of the Irish Regiments loosing their Caubeens and kilts, because the new CO who came from the Vandoos didn't like them. Any truth to this? Colin

Last edited by Bill A; 26-02-15 at 06:35 PM. Reason: Topic merits its own thread.
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Old 26-02-15, 08:38 PM
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I certainly haven't heard it and would be very surprised if it were true, especially as someone from the Van Doos would be bound to respect the differences in culture in my view.
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Old 26-02-15, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by colin 17 View Post
I heard a story about one of the Irish Regiments loosing their Caubeens and kilts, because the new CO who came from the Vandoos didn't like them. Any truth to this? Colin
I did a course in Borden with a piper from the 2nd Battalion (there is no 1st Battalion, or wasn't at the time) circa 2000, and he arrived wearing pants and a beret. I asked him about it, and the story I had from his lips was, indeed, that a Regular Force officer, or ex Reg F officer, was the new C.O. (?) and had done away with many dress distinctions.

Interesting counterpoint to what I posted just a couple of hours ago in the other thread...but this is only dimly remembered and I stand open to correction. I do recall his beret and harp badge and thought it very odd...we paraded in DEU, I had my kilt, he was in CF trousers.

This was at CFSAL, and there were two from Sudbury and the Irish Regiment on the course; both were RMS Clerks by trade. It may be that infantry were allowed to wear the kilt, but the story you mention sounds very familiar to what I recall him describing to me. Both clerks were in CF trousers and berets.
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Old 26-02-15, 09:02 PM
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Oh well... if this story is true, I will be very embarrassed about what have made a former 22. However, if he decided to change a Regiment's culture as drastic as this story, he was certainly a very frustrated person.

May I ask for what was the time of this particular situation. Usually, as Hussard100 mentioned, we are sensible to these specific cultural differences.

I'ld like to get more details, I certainly can find some more information about it.

Martin
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Old 26-02-15, 09:22 PM
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Oh well... if this story is true, I will be very embarrassed about what have made a former 22. However, if he decided to change a Regiment's culture as drastic as this story, he was certainly a very frustrated person.
I can't recall the exact conversations now, but such a move may been due to the high cost of maintenance. Sudbury is relatively small (today about 160,000 people) and even regiments in urban centres have difficulty maintaining the expensive ceremonial kit. A glengarry is about $100 per, the kilt is about $600 - $900 per, and the kilt grant the DND offers is quite paltry. The rest is made up through regimental funds, and must also cover dress hose, lovat (undress) hose - unless you wear one type for all-purposes - spats, sporrans (some units here, too, have different types, i.e. hair for dress, leather for walking out), etc. I don't imagine a well-made caubeen is much less expensive than a tam o'shanter or balmoral which can be anywhere from $50 to $100 or more, per item.

The plain fact is that some regiments have more money than others due to well-connected honoraries, regimental associations, fund raising ability within the communities, etc. I would guess it is in general easier to do this in the large urban centres than smaller communities such as Sudbury.
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Old 26-02-15, 09:36 PM
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Another good point, I was not taking the problem from a "money" point-of-view. If the decision to remove all the cultural piece of equipment was because it was too expensive, I hope they have kept a few to have some soldiers to get dress appropriately on special occasions?

I am sewing my own kilt, just to know how they were made and it is quite a challenge to make it traditionally. The sad point os I have not a single drop of Scottish or Irish blood in my veins. To compensate, I drink a lot of whisky... does it count to wear a kilt? Seriously, it is because I'm a wine and spirit importer and I was representing a Scots distillery. Hope to get another one soon...
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Old 27-02-15, 12:30 AM
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Yes true story. IIRC in 2004 or 2005, Lt. Col. Voltonen officially announced the Kilt and Caubeen were being reinstated. I cannot recall exactly what year that announcement was made.

I also recall our kilts in the 90's were like bath wraps and could not pass muster as a kilt. Our caubeens were no better. The materials being used were substandard, the kilt would not hold its pleats. The caubeens did not lay correctly.
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Old 27-02-15, 10:19 AM
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That's me firmly put in my place. I didn't think an officer of field rank from a unit with such distinctive traditions as the Van Doos would ever disrespect the customs and practices (based on generations of service) of another unit.

As for cost: we had no P&D. We had two pipers, later three. Their uniforms were in the distinctive Irish style apart from a hussar jacket. None of their kit was on our establishment and had to be paid for. In our case the officers mess imposed a levy. I'm sure the sgts mess, cpls mess and the JR's would have been equally keen to contribute if they had been offered the chance.
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Old 27-02-15, 11:03 PM
Michael Dorosh Michael Dorosh is offline
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As for cost: we had no P&D. We had two pipers, later three. Their uniforms were in the distinctive Irish style apart from a hussar jacket. None of their kit was on our establishment and had to be paid for. In our case the officers mess imposed a levy. I'm sure the sgts mess, cpls mess and the JR's would have been equally keen to contribute if they had been offered the chance.
Always depends on how the proposition is put. Our regimental pipes and drums, when I served in it, was a fully funded reserve unit with a separate unit identification code and identity within the CF. We did, however, have volunteer members who came out and practiced and performed with the band. For the most part it was seamless, and everyone understood that the serving soldiers got paid, and the volunteers were just that.

The line got blurred when we went on a trip to the U.S. for a major performance, and it was decided by our Pipe Major that the meal allowance money for the serving soldiers would be distributed 'fairly' among the volunteers.

I think it would have been okay if anyone had bothered to ask the serving soldiers first, as we mostly appreciated the efforts of the volunteers. However, the proposition was not put to us that way. We paraded after return to Canada, were presented the acquittance roll, told to sign, and then given a fraction of the money we had just signed for. Only when we asked what was going on, at that time, were we informed that we were gifting our fellow bandsmen some of our entitlement.

Presented in that way, the decision rankled. For some of the serving members, it was still just a part-time job and even the salary was little more than beer money. For myself, living at home and going through University, it was my only source of income. A number of us took offence and there were hard feelings. And of course, taking money we had legally signed for was, in retrospect, a criminal act. We didn't think to complain since the way it was presented was that we were being petty, taking a few dollars away from hard-working volunteers who contributed as much to the success of the band and its performance as we well-paid members of the military.

As it turned out, the band was reduced not long after in a round of budget cuts to almost entirely volunteer status, and we serving members involuntarily remustered to other trades (or out of service.) Our PM lingered a couple more years in one of a handful of token funded musician positions and also left the service.
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Old 28-02-15, 04:53 PM
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I would have been annoyed too if the situation had been presented to me as a fait accompli whereas, like you say, had I been polled about it beforehand I would have agreed it was fair - probably.

I know our pipers got a percentage of the fee when we were on paying jobs and they were included on the ration roll when we weren't. These days they're on the establishment so there are no issues but to get them there took the work of many successive colonels - and not just from our own regiment - we had support from 5DG, the Micks and the Rangers. They even let us kit and sold us some spares cheap from their buckshees. Everybody thought it was sad that an Irish Unit had no P&D.

These days our pipers attend the Army Piping School, just like the others.
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