Royal marine titles

[Rolly]

46 royal marine titles
In after finding out what period these are from
I know 46 disbanded in 1946
But when looking at royal titles they seem to be the cash titles
Where these worn or and are these good titles if so
Thanx rolly

[Mike B]

John Rawlinson illustrates these two titles on page 206 of in 'Personal Distinctions: 350 Years of Royal Marines Uniform and Insignia'. He states

''Two varieties of 46 Cdo badges. The top (your serif one) appears to be of WW2 manufacture but has not been traced in any photographs. The bottom title (your other one) is post war manufacture and may have been worn by 46 (VR) Commando, but this is uncertain''.

Given John's access to the Royal Museum collection and archive the absence of a photograph may be difficult to remedy.

Perhaps a veteran may be able to enlighten us about the 46 (VR) Commando theory.

Mike

Not one to miss an opportunity - I am looking for a further '46' Cash Tape numeral if anyone can assist.

[Belly]

Completely agree with Mike

Note, the distinctive construction of the white backed example is identical to a couple of WWII Army Cdo titles, so I believe its of WWII period, as to whether it was actually worn, I couldn't say.


There is a good post here by Steve George who's grandfather served in 46:

http://www.wwiireenacting.co.uk/foru...p?f=12&t=89795

I'm not sure how well researched the post is, but Steve has spent a lot of time with veterans and he is an all round good bloke

cheers
Paul

[Belly]

Just in case you can't access the link, here is the text:

1 On joining the RM you were issued a curved, 'woven', Royal Marines shoulder title.

2 On completion of commando training you were issued a straight, 'cash's tape', Commando shoulder title that would be placed below the RM shoulder title.

3 On joining an RM Cdo unit you were issued either a 'woven' or 'cash's tape' unit numeral that would be placed above the the RM shoulder title.


So initially you would have a mixture of separate 'woven' & 'cashs tape' shoulder titles, but then.....

1 A straight 'cashs tape' Royal Marines was produced.

2 A 'woven' Commando shoulder title was produced.

3 A 'cash's tape' unit numeral was produced.


So now you could now have either all 'woven' or all 'cashs tape' or a mixture of 'woven' & 'cashs tape' shoulder titles, but then.....


1 A curved 'woven' shoulder title with Royal Marines, Commando, and Unit numeral was produced.

2 A straight 'woven' shoulder title with Royal Marines, Commando, and Unit numeral was produced.


So now you could have either of the above, all 'woven' or all 'cashs tape' or a mixture of 'woven' & 'cashs tape' shoulder titles, but then.....


1 Some RM Cdo units had their own titles produced that differed to that of other RM Cdo units.

2 Some units would only wear certain style of shoulder title on specific battledress (denims, working battledress or walking out battledress for example)

3 Some longer serving individuals preferred to wear a certain style of shoulder title.


So depending on the individual, the RM Cdo unit, and the period of the war you wish to portray the answer to your question should be somewhere above, but then.....!

[Rolly]

Thanx for the info as always and appreciate the knowledge

[Mike B]

Many thanks Paul for providing very useful chronological guidance.
I have spent a little time checking out the first entry concerning:

Issue of 'a curved ROYAL MARINE title'.

Which is noted as being made 'upon joining' the Corps.

John Rawlinson includes such a Curved title as part of a three part 47 / ROYAL MARINES / COMMANDO combination, within a Private Collection (page 207 of 'Personal Distinctions: 350 years of Royal Marines Uniforms and Insignia').

I then referred to the www.rmhistorical.com site and only found the curved ROYAL MARINES title in a post war combination with separate VR (voluntary Reserve) patch below.

Wartime ROYAL MARINES titles are noted within AFO 995 1941 - but these are straight not curved
The straight title is then mentioned again in AFO 2352 1942
Then again in AFO 3073 1944

I can not find reference to a Wartime Curved 'ROYAL MARINES' title

Can any other Forum Member provide any clarification please?

Mike

[Belly]

I think you're right Mike, I've gone through all the albums on the CVA and cannot find a single curved ROYAL MARINES title (plenty of curved COMMANDO titles). I had thought there were some in this picture but changed my mind:
http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205159348

Still a question mark over whether the chap with the dagger is wearing one

Cheers
Paul

[Mike B]

Hi Paul
May be just a 'puckered' Battle Dress. Thanks for searching CVA too - always a useful source. The article (in your earlier thread) is still very useful in helping explain the variety of 'non-cash tape' RM combination titles we see.
Mike

[paul w]

I believe the initial issue was of a straight embroidered Royal Marines title, these were worn pre war by the Corps and it makes sense that the embroidered commando titles and numerals and cash tapes were added as and when and the 'mish mash' was probably due to availability, later drafts to the units were more likely to have the cash tape titles.Just my opinion of course.

Paul

[Mike B]

Paul - logical
Another reason dating can be tricky
M

[3battalion]

Hello Gents,

Coming late into the conversation and attached I added a few titles I've picked up over the years. I couldn't see it mentioned but does anyone know why some titles have 'Royal Marine Commando' and some have 'Royal Marines Commando?'

Great thread.

Thanks

Paul

[Mike B]

Hello Paul
An interesting collection of items - adding to the conundrum. It helps demonstrate the variety to be found and further demonstrates problems of dating. Photographic evidence may suggest this is largely a post war grouping (or certainly late war) but this is just a hunch. It would be good to find proper dative evidence if any Corps Specialist can help.
I once bought a combination where your small 'No.46' was placed (complete not cropped) above the curved ROYAL MARINE / COMMANDO one piece title you illustrate at middle left. I am convinced this was a marriage rather than correct combination.
The small No.46 would appear to be a source for cropped '46' numerals sometimes found in wartime combinations, where as, the one piece ROYAL MARINE / COMMANDO may be later.
Sorry 'muddy the water' further
Mike

[paul w]

I thought I'd read about this conundrum before and there is indeed a post on it on the GMIC forum. The gist is that the original RM shoulder titles, as already discussed always read Royal Marines, the commando titles were added underneath so it was natural that the later one piece titles continued in the same vein, the exception being 46 which I guess being a privately purchased title left out the 's'. This also makes sense in a way because the RM units were always known as, for example, 40 Royal 'Marine' Commando when spoke of or written about. Apparently an order appeared in November 1945 stating the words Royal Marines were to be placed after the designation of a unit and another appered in 1951 stating that the adjective 'Royal Marines' would in future be used instead of 'Royal Marine', as in Royal Marines officer. Could be that the curved 'Royal Marine Commando' title was indeed made for 46 for use with a separate numeral.Hope that makes sense and thanks to Mr Leigh Kitchen whose post I plagiarised, hope he doesn't mind.

Paul

[Mike B]

Paul
Cross referencing across forums must be helpful as we all want to share knowledge. Thanks for the GMIS reference. Sources are always useful if contributors to any thread can provide them. If references to the 'orders' referred to could be clarified that would be particularly helpful.
Mike

[3battalion]

Thanks Paul W that certainly sounds like the most plausible explanation for this difference in naming.

Paul