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  #1  
Old 29-12-13, 01:01 PM
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Default Canadian militia/CEF units (subset) order of precedence

Hi all,

Apologies for what is probably a biff question, however I'm not a collector of Canadian badges.. I'm trying to lock down the correct order of precedence for the following Canadian units in WW1. I've looked at your forum project, Wikipedia etc but the titles are varying a lot and am tying myself in knots!

The units in question are:

Royal Canadian Artillery
Royal Canadian Dragoons
9th Mississauga Horse
25th Brant Dragoons
Royal Highlanders of Canada
1st Newfoundland Regiment
19th Lincoln Regiment
29th Waterloo Regiment
31st British Columbia Horse
34th Ontario Regiment
41st Brockville Rifles
French Canadians
45th Victoria Regiment
48th Highlanders Regiment
49th Hastings Rifles
57th Peterborough Regiment
91st Manitoba Light Infantry
Canadian Ordnance Corps

The reason for asking and only on those specific units...? These units all feature on "Delandres", a series of French poster stamps produced during that war, I have most of them but want to display them in the correct order on the album page alongside their British counterparts. A nice little sideline militaria item.

Separately, there is a Lincolnshire Yeomanry delandre which is listed in the stamp catalogue as being Canadian, seemingly by virtue of having a large "Canada" on the design and there being a Canadian Lincoln Regiment. I can't find any reference to a Canadian unit of that title, nor a connection between the British Lincoln Yeo and Canada. Can anyone shed any light on this please?

Would appreciate your guidance and corrections please!

Regards, Michael
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Old 29-12-13, 02:13 PM
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Hi Michael, The units listed are not CEF, but are Canadian militia pre-1914. The first in seniority are the corps which means Royal Canadian Artillery is senior, then the Canadian Ordnance Corps. Following the corps is the cavalry; the RCD, the 9 MH, and 25th Brant Dragoons. The infantry regiments follow, and seniority is numerical, so from lowest to highest. The Royal Highlanders were originally the 5th regiment, so it is senior in your list of infantry, and the rest follow numerically except for the 1st Newfoundland. Newfoundland was a separate colony up until 1949. The 91st Manitoba LI was a short lived unit, with the 91st number re-assigned to the 91st Regiment Canadian Highlanders in 1903.
I don't know who the "French Canadians" is? Is the stamp the image of a beaver? And you are correct, there is no record of a Canadian Lincolnshire Yeomanry.
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Old 29-12-13, 03:42 PM
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Hi Bill, that's brilliant and very many thanks. Apologies for my schoolboy errors - is it possible to edit the thread title?!

Interesting to learn they are all militia rather than CEF as the final item in the set is actually for the Canadian Expeditionary Force!! Hence my assumption the units were CEF. Should that one come after the others then?

The French Canadians item.. The illustration is a fleur de lys with maple leaf, beaver and crown superimposed, over a numeral 41 and a scroll titled "Batailon Canadien Francais". I'll try and photo / scan and post but hope you can advise based on that?

Good to know on the Lincs Yeo. I was pretty sure it was a miss in the catalogue, but still intrigued as to the Canadian connection.

Really appreciate your help on this, thank you.

Michael
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Old 29-12-13, 03:47 PM
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Image attached
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Old 29-12-13, 03:54 PM
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Hi Michael, There is considerable confusion in collecting circles when distinguishing between the pre-1914 Canadian militia and the CEF. They were both numbered, and some CEF battalions actually used the militia number as well. (Perhaps one of the best examples is the 72nd Seaforth Highlanders who were the 72nd in both the militia and CEF.) I also made a mistake and should have moved the 31st BC Horse to the cavalry seniority list.
The French Canadiens badge is for the 41st Bn CEF. I am wondering if the stamp engravers labelled CEF badges to their militia parents? Is it possible to post scans of the stamps? There may be a connection between the Lincolnshire Yeo and Canada. Did the Lincolnshire Yeo serve in the First World War? They may have been connected with the Canadian Cavalry Bde.
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Old 01-01-14, 09:27 AM
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Hi Bill, sorry for the delay, had to scan and sort. I've attached scans of the ones I have plus some illustrations from the catalogue for the four I've yet to find. If you can help me resolve please that would be brilliant.

On the Leicestershire Yeo, it seems from a little research that they spent most of the war in the Western Frontier Force with the ANZACS at Gaza, Beersheba etc and only made it to France in June 1918 (which makes it a bit of a miracle that they got picked up as a Delandre at all). In France they were attached to the First Army and served at Etaples. Would that put them anywhere near a Canadian unit..?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Canada 1.jpg (72.8 KB, 43 views)
File Type: jpg Canada 2.jpg (65.4 KB, 35 views)
File Type: jpg Canada 3.jpg (91.6 KB, 33 views)
File Type: jpg 19th Lincoln.jpg (117.4 KB, 33 views)
File Type: jpg 29th and 45th.jpg (47.8 KB, 29 views)
File Type: jpg 91st.jpg (60.5 KB, 31 views)
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Old 01-01-14, 12:30 PM
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Images are very helpful. The regiments to which the stamps refer are Canadian militia or permanent force units with the exception of the 41st which was CEF. The 91st reference is odd, as the unit number had been assigned to the 91st Highlanders of Hamilton Ontario.
A bit confused about the Yeomanry regiment. Is it the Lincolnshire or Leicestershire? Or are these different names for the same? (British units are not my area.)
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Old 01-01-14, 12:57 PM
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Sorry Bill, I mis-typed and meant to put Lincolnshire Yeo not Leicestershire (they are different units). I'm assuming there's no connection to the Candian Cav Bde based in their location in France.

Based on your scans are there any further changes to the ordering? Would CEF ones come before or after the Militia? The 91st is interesting, the title is quite specific on the delandre but seemingly doesn't tally, so not sure what's happening there! Michael
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Old 01-01-14, 02:40 PM
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Hi expat Y, If I understand the seniority, the CEF was a war raised entity and would follow the militia units in seniority. CEF units were perpetuated by militia units after the war, and that may complicate the seniority question. The 41st Bn was perpetuated by Le Regt de Maisonneuve.
I did a bit of digging on the Lincolnshire Yeomanry history during the FWW, and I can't see any obvious connection between that regiment and the CEF.
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Old 01-01-14, 10:35 PM
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A lazy day today, so I thought I'd cobble this together if it helps you arrange your stamps, Expat.

Everything Bill A says is correct, I just added dates & dug up the corresponding CEF battalions these regiments would have contributed to.

The order will vary depending on how you want to organize your stamps. If you are looking at strict historic seniority dating back to the pre-WWI militia era, like Bill says, the order will be as per the numbering of the regiments, with the French Canadians and the Nfld. Regiment coming last.

The first year date left of the regiment name is when they can trace their lineage to. The year in square brackets is when they adopted the name they would have been known by according to your stamps (although the stamps aren't quite correct in some cases). Precedence does not precede Confederation, so even though there are militia units tracing lineages to 1866, they only 'officially' go back to 1900 in precedence.

If you are looking to arrange your stamps by when the regiments appeared in the CEF order of things, I'd go by the date the first battalion they contributed to or raised was authorized. The 41st & 45th would come after the 48th, 49th & 57th, since their CEF battalions were authorized Dec. 1915, vs. Aug. 1914 for the 'junior' regiments' battalions.

A couple of oddities. Like Bill said, the 91st Regiment, Manitoba Light Infantry isn't right. This should be the 91st Regiment, Canadian Highlanders (from Ontario). The Manitoba Light Infantry were disbanded long before WWI. The other is the 19th Lincoln, which shows it's previous incarnation's 19th St. Catherines badge.

---

Cavalry

1883 [1893]: Royal Canadian Dragoons
— sailed 1914 as part of 1st CEF contingent

1901 [1907]: 9th Mississauga Horse
— 2nd Bn. CEF (Aug. 1914), then 4th & 7th Mounted Rifles (March 1915)

1909: 25th Brant Dragoons
— 4th Mounted Rifles (March 1915); poss. 125th Bn. CEF (Dec. 1915)

1911 [1912]: 31st British Columbia Horse
— prob. 2nd Mounted Rifles (March 1915)


Corps

1871 [1893]: Royal Canadian Artillery

1903 [1907]: Canadian Ordnance Corps


Infantry

1884 [1906]: 5th Regiment Royal Highlanders of Canada
— 13th (Aug. 1914), 42nd & 73rd Bn's CEF

1863 [1912]: 19th Lincoln Regiment
(was the “19th St. Catherines Regiment” from 1900-1912, and your stamp shows that badge)
— 81st (Aug. 1915) & 176th Bn's CEF

1866 [1900]: 29th Waterloo Regiment (re-named “29th Regiment (Highland Light Infantry)” in 1915)
— 1st (Aug. 1914), 34th & 111th Bn's CEF

1866 [1900]: 34th Ontario Regiment
— 2nd (Aug. 1914), 116th & 182nd Bn's CEF

1866 [1900]: 41st Regiment “Brockville Rifles”
— 156th Bn. CEF (Dec. 1915)

1866 [1900]: 45th Victoria Regiment
— 109th (Dec. 1915) & 252nd Bn's CEF

1891 [1900]: 48th Regiment “Highlanders” (re-named “48th Highlanders of Canada” in 1930)
— 15th (Aug. 1914), 92nd & 134th Bn's CEF

1866 [1900]: 49th Regiment (Hastings Rifles)
— 2nd (Aug. 1914), 39th, 80th & 254th Bn's CEF

1867 [1900]: 57th Regiment “Peterborough Rangers”
— 2nd (Aug. 1914), 93rd & 247th Bn's CEF

1903 [1904]: 91st Regiment, Canadian Highlanders. 91st Bn. Manitoba Light Infantry was disbanded in 1898. Remnants became 12th Manitoba Dragoons in 1893, so if I read this correctly, this is not the same regiment and the 'Delandres' with the Manitoba Light Infantry badge on it instead of the Canadian Highlanders badge would be an error.
— volunteers to 16th Bn. CEF (Nov. 1914)
— 19th (March 1915) & 173rd (July 1916) Bn's CEF

CEF (no previous militia regiment):

1915 (July): 41st Bn. CEF / French Canadians

BEF:

1915 (May): 1st Newfoundland Regiment
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Old 02-01-14, 12:47 PM
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Bill and David, many thanks for your help and comprehensive info (especially as the ask was a bit off topic!) I think I will go for the historic seniority which is the approach I've taken with the British Army ones.

I guess the Lincoln connection will remain a mystery and the 91st too. From my research Delandre seemed more concerned with making a quick franc than spending time on accuracy or original designs - there's one design with a blank tablet that was then used to depict 12 different British units. Economy of effort for max return!

Really appreciate your guidance on this, thank you.

Michael
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Old 22-07-17, 02:18 AM
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Resurrecting this one as I've since found another one that was not in the catalogue - 15th Light Horse (image attached).

Would I be right assuming it would follow the numerical ordering for cavalry units i.e. between 9th Mississauga and 25th Brant Dragoons or am I barking up the wrong tree there.

Would appreciate any guidance please - I have zero knowledge of Canadian units. Many thanks in advance, Michael
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Old 22-07-17, 12:28 PM
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Hi Expat, yes you are correct. The 15th is from the militia, and seniority in that numerical sequence.
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Old 23-07-17, 02:33 AM
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Very many thanks Bill - will update today. Michael
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