2nd VB - Royal West Kent Regiment

[Keith Blakeman]

I'm not a big postcard collector ('yet') but here's one of my favourites. It's froma collection I bought recently and many of the cards span the period approx 1908-1918 and have a family connection. The recipient is a Mrs. (Lizzie) Sartain in Woolwich with the cards postmarked Bromley. The common theme is West Kent Territorials, ASC and the RA. Some have been posted on the Great War Forum already but I think I'll continue and repost them on here.

Text reads: "These chaps are the pride of the West Kent Volunteers. Have sent one out to Aunt Alice. With love and kind regards from Syd.

Once I get to the bottom of it all I'll make up an album but in the meantime here's a card of the 2nd VB RWK. I've scanned the original on high resolution and as the man in the centre at the bottom had kindly got his fsc on sideways the badge is clearly visible as a blackened brass RWK with the circular 2nd VB disc at the base. Embroided shoulder titles can also be seen as 2/V/RW KENT.

Interesting Tobelerone packaging!

[matti467]

What I love about these pictures is the sheer lack of uniformity in uniform. Now, having thought about the last phrase I typed there is an interesting juxtaposition of phrases there! It reminds me of some of the uniforms that we see early volunteers wearing in pictures of 1914.

[Toby Purcell]

They must have been a Rifle battalion as those are green tunics with black braiding to the cuffs and black buttons that several of them are wearing. I'm not sure what the facing colour was and it could have been black or red.

The design of the "Dixie" (cooking pot) in the foreground has not changed in over 150 years.

[Keith Blakeman]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

They must have been a Rifle battalion as those are green tunics with black braiding to the cuffs and black buttons that several of them are wearing. I'm not sure what the facing colour was and it could have been black or red.

The design of the "Dixie" (cooking pot) in the foreground has not changed in over 150 years.

The cap badge was blackened brass so definitely a rifle battalion. According to Westlake (Tracing the Rifle Volunteers) the uniform was green/black.

[Unknownsoldier]

RWK facing is always black isn't it? Hence the Dirty half hundred nickname?

Great photo

Tom

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Unknownsoldier

RWK facing is always black isn't it? Hence the Dirty half hundred nickname?

Great photo

Tom

No, black was their original facing colour and most famously worn throughout the Peninsula War, but after 1881 and their title change to being a Royal Regiment the colour changed to blue.

[Keith Blakeman]

Here are three more cards, two of them addressed to Mrs. Sartain and signed this time by Bob. I've put them in the order I think they were sent.

First up a group of Signallers. An interesting card as some of them are in what I think are blue patrols and taken around the time of the change from VB's to Territorials. Despite the high resolution I can only make out a few titles, metal on the man seated centre row right as plain R.W.KENT and embroided KENT on those in khaki. No sign of any T titles though.

This card is dated 10th August 1908 and posted again in Bromley to Woolwich. It reads: "Dear Aunt, Just got back from camp and we had a jolly fine time. Amy sends her love shall be over soon." Bob.



The next one is a real puzzle. Again from Bob and dated 19th October 1908, these are definitely Territorial. T4's are being worn by some in the back row and T5's at the front. The officer has bronze T's under his collar badges. This one reads: "Dear Aunt, This is our champion shooting team. Won the championship cup 6 years in succession + they are 'hot stuff' ." Bob.



This makes me think Bob isn't in the picture but may have been in the first one? However the sergeant back row, first in from the left also appears in this unmarked card.



I think there is a connection to the 2nd VB card but I can't be certain. 2nd VB were recruited from areas around South East London including Bromley, however they became part of the 20th London Regiment in 1908. Bromley was the HQ of the 5th Battalion RWK but drawn from the old 1st VB. No mention of a company at Bromley is mentioned in Westlake's "Tracing the Rifle Volunteers" although the addition of a further three companies to the eight listed was made by 1900, maybe Bromley was one of them as the Drill Hall Project database states E & F companies. It would appear that part of the 2nd VB went to the 20th London and the remainder joined with the 1st VB to create the 4th (Tonbridge) and 5th (Bomley) Territiorial Battalions in 1908.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Keith Blakeman

Here are three more cards, two of them addressed to Mrs. Sartain and signed this time by Bob. I've put them in the order I think they were sent.

First up a group of Signallers. An interesting card as some of them are in what I think are blue patrols and taken around the time of the change from VB's to Territorials. Despite the high resolution I can only make out a few titles, metal on the man seated centre row right as plain R.W.KENT and embroided KENT on those in khaki. No sign of any T titles though.

This card is dated 10th August 1908 and posted again in Bromley to Woolwich. It reads: "Dear Aunt, Just got back from camp and we had a jolly fine time. Amy sends her love shall be over soon." Bob.


The next one is a real puzzle. Again from Bob and dated 19th October 1908, these are definitely Territorial. T4's are being worn by some in the back row and T5 at the front. The officers has bronze T's under his collar badges. This one reads: "Dear Aunt, This is our champion shooting team. Won the championship cup 6 years in succession + they are 'hot stuff' ." Bob.



This makes me think Bob isn't in the picture but may have been in the first one? However the sergeant back row, first in from the left also appears in this unmarked card.



I think there is a connection to the 2nd VB card but I can't be certain. 2nd VB were recruited from areas around South East London including Bromley, however they became part of the 20th London Regiment in 1908. Bromley was the HQ of the 5th Battalion RWK but drawn from the old 1st VB. No mention of a company at Bromley is mentioned in Westlake's "Tracing the Rifle Volunteers" although the addition of a further three companies to the eight listed was made by 1900, maybe Bromley was one of them as the Drill Hall Project database states E & F companies. It would appear that part of the 2nd VB went to the 20th London and the remainder joined with the 1st VB to create the 4th (Tonbridge) and 5th (Bomley) Territiorial Battalions in 1908.

One of the companies was definitely at Penge and I believe there was another at Bromley as I recall that both locations had old drill halls. The old regimental badge was still on the sign at Penge in the 1970s. The Battalion HQ was on Blackheath and the building it was in still stands.

In the first photo they are not in blue patrols but the same rifle green tunic with black facings of the original post. In both of those photos they appear to have some kind of (perhaps oilskin) cover on the top part of their field service caps.

[Keith Blakeman]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

One of the companies was definitely at Penge and I believe there was another at Bromley as I recall that both locations had old drill halls. The old regimental badge was still on the sign at Penge in the 1970s. The Battalion HQ was on Blackheath and the building it was in still stands.

In the first photo they are not in blue patrols but the same rifle green tunic with black facings of the original post. In both of those photos they appear to have some kind of (perhaps oilskin) cover on the top part of their field service caps.

Toby, thanks for the confirmation of the uniforms.

I've taken a few photos on the way in to work this morning which I'll upload later. The Penge one is I presume the building called The Drum in Parish Lane which is currently residential housing in pretty grim condition. No badge on it these days though, was it in the the pediment over the entrance arch ? East Street, Bromley is still there converted to a pub.

[grumpy]

First shot shows a very highly qualified corporal at left:

marksman, signaller, and I believe Special Service Section worsted variety.
He has also put at least 4 years in.

Is a close-up possible please?

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Keith Blakeman

Toby, thanks for the confirmation of the uniforms.

I've taken a few photos on the way in to work this morning which I'll upload later. The Penge one is I presume the building called The Drum in Parish Lane which is currently residential housing in pretty grim condition. No badge on it these days though, was it in the the pediment over the entrance arch ? East Street, Bromley is still there converted to a pub.

I don't remember the name of the street (I had thought it was in the High Street as that was the way we went in), but yes there were metal gates and railings and it was all built of beautiful Victorian/Edwardian engineering bricks of a quality that would never be used for a military building today. The badge was beside rather than over the gates. In the 1970s only the ACF were using it and the whole of the back part, including offices and garages was sadly derelict. The unit there was 101 (Cadet) Battery, Royal Artillery (ACF), which is now I believe 101 (ACF) Detachment, Princess of Wales's Royal Regiment, although I am unsure if they are still in the same location. Initially Penge came under Surrey, but was transferred to Kent in 1899 and then Greater London in 1968.

102 Battery was I think at Bromley. There seems to be good histories here:

1. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.h...rgthistory.htm

2. http://www.4webs.talktalk.net/regiment/rgthistory.htm

As regards the rifle green tunics, notice how in the first photo they have the Austrian Knots indicating a Volunteer Unit on their cuffs. After 1908 these knots were generally removed and this is reflected in the second photo where they cannot be seen.

[Keith Blakeman]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

I don't remember the name of the street (I had thought it was in the High Street as that was the way we went in), but yes there were metal gates and railings and it was all built of beautiful Victorian/Edwardian engineering bricks of a quality that would never be used for a military building today. The badge was beside rather than over the gates. In the 1970s only the ACF were using it and the whole of the back part, including offices and garages was sadly derelict. The unit there was 101 (Cadet) Battery, Royal Artillery (ACF), which is now I believe 101 (ACF) Detachment, Princess of Wales's Royal Regiment, although I am unsure if they are still in the same location. Initially Penge came under Surrey, but was transferred to Kent in 1899 and then Greater London in 1968.

102 Battery was I think at Bromley. There seems to be good histories here:

1. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.h...rgthistory.htm

2. http://www.4webs.talktalk.net/regiment/rgthistory.htm

As regards the rifle green tunics, notice how in the first photo they have the Austrian Knots indicating a Volunteer Unit on their cuffs. After 1908 these knots were generally removed and this is reflected in the second photo where they cannot be seen.

I'm wondering if the building you mention is the one next to the War Memorial which is on the main road down towards Penge from Crystal Palace Park. I had to do a survey there once (now Housing Association flats) and it smacked of military pretty much confirmed by the ACF behind it. It's mentioned on the Drill Hall Project but with no further information. Out of interest there's a very similar building tucked away further up the hill on I think it's Wells Road near the Dulwich Wood House pub.

Here's The Drum in Parish Lane, Penge.





And the Drill Hall in East Street, Bromley



I also took the opportunity of taking some pics of the 4th RWK Drill Hall in Anglesea Road, Orpington. The postcards were bought in a shop near here and nice to think the soldiers in them would have served in some of these buildings.

[Toby Purcell]

[quote=Keith Blakeman;142387]I'm wondering if the building you mention is the one next to the War Memorial which is on the main road down towards Penge from Crystal Palace Park. I had to do a survey there once (now Housing Association flats) and it smacked of military pretty much confirmed by the ACF behind it. It's mentioned on the Drill Hall Project but with no further information. Out of interest there's a very similar building tucked away further up the hill on I think it's Wells Road near the Dulwich Wood House pub.[quote=Keith Blakeman;142387]


Hello Keith, yes it is interesting to see the photos. I think that where I described was on the High Street that led down from Crystal Palace and on the 227 Bus Route. I do remember the war memorial. It was a surprisingly large plot and I am sure was quite old, perhaps from the days of the TF in 1908, or maybe before, but I am not sure. My overriding memory is of the wall and railings at the front on which the badge was mounted. It was certainly not "The Drum" that you have shown. I do not know anything about the Wells Rd site, but I hope that something can be found out, it is important that these places are recorded.

[Toby Purcell]

[quote=Toby Purcell;142392]

Originally Posted by Keith Blakeman

I'm wondering if the building you mention is the one next to the War Memorial which is on the main road down towards Penge from Crystal Palace Park. I had to do a survey there once (now Housing Association flats) and it smacked of military pretty much confirmed by the ACF behind it. It's mentioned on the Drill Hall Project but with no further information. Out of interest there's a very similar building tucked away further up the hill on I think it's Wells Road near the Dulwich Wood House pub.

Hello Keith, yes it is interesting to see the photos. I think that the drill hall that I described was on the High Street that led down from Crystal Palace and on the 227 Bus Route. I do remember the war memorial. It was a surprisingly large plot and I am sure was quite old, perhaps from the days of the TF in 1908, or maybe before, but I am not sure. My overriding memory is of the wall and railings at the front on which the badge was mounted. It was certainly not "The Drum" that you have shown. I do not know anything about the Wells Rd site, but I hope that something can be found out, it is important that these places are recorded.

[Keith Blakeman]

Originally Posted by grumpy

First shot shows a very highly qualified corporal at left:

marksman, signaller, and I believe Special Service Section worsted variety.
He has also put at least 4 years in.

Is a close-up possible please?

I hope this is good enough.