Royal Dublin Fusiliers Band

[John Mulcahy]

Originally Posted by BILL DUGGAN

and later painted this drawing of what the R.D.F. looked like when they was at Tourney Barracks.

Bill you painted this? Well done !

[BILL DUGGAN]

Thats a great N.F.cap showing the true 'Gosling' green.

Which was of course a shade of 'snuff' brown. (not always correctly appreciated)

A great little collection.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Keith Blakeman

Very good thread and excellent research Toby. Nice collection of FSC's, I have one to The Buffs, black with buff piping and boss, silver dragon with S&G buttons.

Like this one?

Superb picture of the RDF that you painted Bill. You have such a great talent.

[Keith Blakeman]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

Like this one?

That's the one! It's my boss and badge.

[Graham Stewart]

Originally Posted by BILL DUGGAN

Thats a great N.F.cap showing the true 'Gosling' green.

Which was of course a shade of 'snuff' brown. (not always correctly appreciated)

A great little collection.

Check this site out as nearly all of my NF uniforms are on here;-
http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/25...land-fusilers/

[BILL DUGGAN]

Hi Graham,
Great website; can't see anyone familiar. I was only RRF for my last 12 months.

I once saw a very ancient 5th foot coat (American War of Independence period) in Campden Passage, Islington and the facing colour "Gosling Green" was exactly as the coat shown on that website. (so it never changed much over the years)

I think the coat had a four figure sum on it (Mickey Mouse money) It's probably in America somewhere now.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by BILL DUGGAN

Hi Grahem,
Great website; can't see anyone familier. I was only RRF for my last 12 months.

I once saw a very ancient 5th foot coat (American War of Independence period) in Campden Passage, Islington and the facing colour "Gosling Green" was exactly as the coat shown on that website. (so it never changed much over the years)

I think the coat had a four figure sum on it (Mickey Mouse money) It's probably in America somewhere now.

One of the things I love about your RDF painting is the way that you have represented the bright blue cap covers fitted over the tops of the Royal type forage caps. These caps are not clear in my mind yet as the modern type with a broad red band does not seem to have been worn when first introduced. All the black and white photos I have seen show them as plain dark blue and I do not know even if they had any red piping, let alone a broad red band. Further research seems necessary to be sure when the red banded caps were first introduced.

[BILL DUGGAN]

The RDF caps didn't have blue cap covers because their caps had blue tops to begin with. The blue in my depiction maybe a little bright. (as it may have appeared in bright sunlight)

I mention that a lot of postcard artists miss this detail because it doesn't show up well on early photographs

The rest of the cap, is normal as for a 'Royal' regiment. Having a broad red cap band.

I think your getting the blue cap covers idea from the much later Military Police V.P. (vulnerable points) units.

I would be very interested to see a RDF broderick cap. There's probably one in a museum somewhere.

A lot of regiments wore white cap covers in the pre-WW1 era which make them look like naval personnel.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by BILL DUGGAN

The RDF caps didn't have blue cap covers because their caps had blue tops to begin with. The blue in my depiction maybe a little bright. (as it may have appeared in bright sunlight)

I mention that a lot of postcard artists miss this detail because it doesn't show up well on early photographs

The rest of the cap, is normal as for a 'Royal' regiment. Having a broad red cap band.

I think your getting the blue cap covers idea from the much later Military Police V.P. (vulnerable points) units.

I would be very interested to see a RDF broderick cap. There's probably one in a museum somewhere.

A lot of regiments wore white cap covers in the pre-WW1 era which make them look like naval personnel.

Bill, based on my fairly extensive studies so far, I do not believe that ORs of the RDF or indeed any other Line Regt, had special 1905 forage caps issued to them in their own regimental colours. Uniforms issued to ORs during that period were largely of 'general' pattern and at most had different coloured facings with even those challenged by the Army clothing authorities from time to time. There was always a tension between the 'regimental system'. which advocated as many regimental differences as possible and the Army dress committee(s) who under pressure from the exchequer tried to curtail costs by standardizing as much as possible.

Officers however, purchased their own uniforms from well established military tailors so that regimental differences were perpetuated and thus backed up the dynamic trend of the regiments to be 'different'. It was in that way that the officers Field Service Caps could be made up in a regimental colour (the same with the NF's Gosling Green). Nevertheless, ORs head dress in particular largely conformed to a general pattern and the (large number of) different coloured bands around hats are a relatively modern thing created as a sop for the loss of full dress and were at their height with the introduction of No1 Dress (based on earlier Blue Patrols) in 1953, when piping around shoulder straps (only) also was authorized and sealed at the same time as a lot of the 'new' banded caps (which you will not have seen with battle dress).

If you look at the same style of forage caps in mid to late 1900s there are not the van dyke stripes, red bands, white bands and other banks around them. They are clearly a plain colour with at the very most a coloured piping around the seams. I am hoping to find out when the first red bands were authorized and would welcome any members quotation from lists of changes that can throw a light on this.

I strongly believe that some regiments got around this by having battalion tailors make up cap covers similar to the waterproof type that were issued by the WD for the 1902 SD cap. It was a relatively easy matter to emulate these with coloured cloth covers and once drawn taut they look in photographs like coloured tops to the caps themselves. I have seen such a cap for the SWB in grass green. For the Brodrick cap the first issue was relatively plain and it was only gradually that different coloured patches were added behind badges, and in some cases these too were created by battalion tailors. I suspect very much that this was the time that the RDF first used cap covers (i.e. on their Brodricks).

It was the officers, RSM and Band (only) who wore the white covers except when wearing white frocks and trousers.

[BILL DUGGAN]

Toby,
You are obviously unaware that The Royal Dublin Fusiliers wore blue forage caps. In spite of the regiments 'nickname'

I seem to have made the mistake of thinking this fact was well known amongst military enthusiasts.

I apologise for my error.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by BILL DUGGAN

Toby,
You are obviously unaware that The Royal Dublin Fusiliers wore blue forage caps. In spite of the regiments 'nickname'

I seem to have made the mistake of thinking this fact was well known amongst military enthusiasts.

I apologise for my error.

Bill, no not at all. I know that you are correct about their nickname and their pride in it. I know that they wore blue caps and I have already posted 2 photos of an officers' pattern 'RDF blue' FSC, showing the badge at the front, in this thread. What I am saying is that I believe that on the 1905/06 issue forage cap for other ranks they achieved the blue cap effect by using cap covers made up by the battalion tailor. I do not think (although I will happily be proved wrong) that the Royal Army Clothing Department authorized a 'special' pattern forage cap for other ranks of the RDF. The appearance of the cap is the same it is just the method of achieving it that is different. The officers did have 'made up' coloured caps because they were made and paid for privately via military tailors. I am a bit sad that you felt the need to resort to sarcasm, as my remarks are always meant in a friendly way and open debate is invited from all. Surely that is what we military enthusiasts gather here for?

[BILL DUGGAN]

I don't want to pursue this point much farther. It has nothing to do with what this website is about, i.e. badges.

I have several books in my small library that state that the forage cap of The Royal Dublin Fusiliers was a lighter shade of blue (no mention of cap covers)

I joined this badge forum to learn and pick up hints and tips. I am 65 years old and still believe you are never too old to learn.

What I find irksome is that when I dispense a fact or two; that information is questioned and/or contradicted.

This is my last posting on this irritable subject.

[Toby Purcell]

I don't really understand why you are irritated Bill. I meant no offence by what I have said and I have not been rude. I also have not denied that the RDF wore a special blue cap. How officers and how ORs obtain their head dress is different in every regiment and that has to be borne in mind.

I am a collector of badges and have been a long time, and clothing in the form of head dress, and badges, are directly linked. Indeed the design of badges is usually governed by the design of head dress, with Home Service Helmets, Foreign Service Helmets, Field Service Caps and Forage Caps all playing a part. Thus serious collectors of badges will usually take an interest in, and over time learn something about, various types of head dress. It is not really possible, intelligently, to wholly separate the two. Like you, I also have a small library and take great interest in all the information that it contains.

Officers clothing was governed differently to the men's via 'Dress Regulations' that were issued by the War Office from time-to-time and the officers were expected to purchase their own items including badges and, in general, their uniforms were more elaborate, expensive and varied in style.

Soldiers clothing, including head dress and badges, was regulated differently and as time went on more 'generally' with an intent to make them as cheap as possible whilst meeting requirements of the regimental system in as economical a way as the manufacturing and procurement system would allow.

The work of provision, storage and supply was the responsibility of the Chief Ordnance Officer Royal Army Clothing Department whose central depot was at Pimlico. The items (including Materials) that this department was responsible for are found in a Publication called the "Priced Vocabulary of Clothing and Necessaries " (PVCN). Pattern introductions and changes were tracked and recorded in the Royal Army Clothing Department Clothing ledgers or “Register of Changes” (shortened to List of Changes).

All plumes, hackles, glengarries, forage caps, FSC and so forth were recorded by serial number in PVCNs and that included any regimental variations. If the RDF ORs had special made up forage caps in a regimental colour this will have been recorded, in the same way as it's blue and green plume was. Someone, somewhere will have seen this if it existed. My theory is that the officers were able to purchase made up caps via regimental tailors, but that the men were issued 1905/06 pattern forage caps for line infantry (with perhaps the Royal distinction) and that battalion tailors made the necessary blue covers to match the officers caps. I will be happy to be proved wrong, it is just a theory.

Unfortunately there does not seem to be regimental museums for the old Irish regiments, nor have I heard of any central repository of their artefacts and regalia. I saw some limited items (mostly silver) during a visit to Sandhurst, but have not seen any collection of uniforms and insignia. Presumably there are items in private collections and I am hoping that this query might stimulate some debate as to whether special coloured blue caps for the men do exist. For me it is revelations like the special RDF bandsmen's badge, which started this thread, and questions about who wore what when, that make this hobby and interest so fascinating. For example, was the RDF bandsmen's arm badge issued by PVCN, or was it a locally made up regimental variation?

[Graham Stewart]

RDF.jpg

Steady lads, steady. Toby old mate afraid you're going to have to concede on this one - attached is Dress Reg's for 1911 and as you'll see RDF officers did have a special shade of blue cloth for their forage caps. It's possible this was extended to the OR's as well, but I have nothing to confirm this.

As both you and I well know, the British Army is bloody notorious for it's "clannish" distinctions, which can defy what we we have learnt over the years and unless you have Standing Orders or Dress Reg's for each individual unit, you're knackered.

Bill - Although I knew the RDF's nickname I too was unaware that they had been sactioned to wear a different shade of cloth with their forage cap's and as you say "we learn something new everyday" in this game. Sepia photography doesn't really help either and as Toby says the general colour shading of the 1902 pattern forage cap is difficult to define from them.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Graham Stewart

Attachment 48429

Steady lads, steady. Toby old mate afraid you're going to have to concede on this one - attached is Dress Reg's for 1911 and as you'll see RDF officers did have a special shade of blue cloth for their forage caps. It's possible this was extended to the OR's as well, but I have nothing to confirm this.

As both you and I well know, the British Army is bloody notorious for it's "clannish" distinctions, which can defy what we we have learnt over the years and unless you have Standing Orders or Dress Reg's for each individual unit, you're knackered.

Bill - Although I knew the RDF's nickname I too was unaware that they had been sactioned to wear a different shade of cloth with their forage cap's and as you say "we learn something new everyday" in this game. Sepia photography doesn't really help either and as Toby says the general colour shading of the 1902 pattern forage cap is difficult to define from them.

Hi Graham,

It is great news that you have some quotable regulations for the officers and I will genuinely be pleased to be proved wrong about the ORs, as I have tried to make clear. I had long ago in this thread conceded that the officers had a special colour, it is just the ORs caps that I am not yet convinced about, so I am not clear about exactly what you are saying that I have not already agreed to? I am familiar with the excerpt from Officers Dress Regulations that you have posted (thanks to you having showed it to me concerning a previous matter).

This is all fascinating stuff and really does epitomise why this hobby is so engrossing. I had hoped someone would have access to a regulation or a PVCN to clarify the issue and sure enough you have come up trumps for the officers dress, now we need the same for the ORs. For Bill: I cannot think of another unit that had its own special undress head dress at that time and it is great to reflect that the parsimonious bean counters had to pay for this distinctive regimental dress for the officers, I am just hoping now to see some proof about the ORs issued head dress.

Thinking about things logically, in full dress head dress there were just a few types of Home Service Helmet that were then made different by the badge, ditto with Fusiliers fur caps and Rifles busbies and plumes. In undress, the 'forage cap' was intitially the Brodrick, which differed only with the coloured patch behind the badge and/or the piping. I am not clear if the RDF had their Brodricks in a special blue colour? It follows that the 1905/06 pattern forage cap seems to have been along similar lines (apparently the first pattern was merely a Brodrick with peak added?) and I am again wondering if the RDF alone had a special coloured cap for ORs, given all the extra expense that would have entailed (there were just 5 battalions, 2 Regular, 3 Militia).

You know Graham that I am well familiar with the infantry's regimental 'tribalism', coming as I do from a regiment with more that its fair share. I am just questioning whether a single regiment's ORs received that special (and thus expensive) treatment. For example, pill box caps were worn by several Rifle regiments, thus justifying the expense, the same with 'plain blue' glengarries if you include pipers. The only similar example to the RDF that I can think of would be the A&SH, who I think were alone in having their red and white (only) chequered border on caps, but even that meant only the bottom section of the cap was different.

It just serves to exemplify how much we have lost in recent years after the introduction of resource account budgeting exposed the cost of every button and badge and gave weight to those calling for economies. There are now very few unique dress distinctions left.