Royal Fusiliers

[Mike Jackson]

A very atmospheric photograph taken by a photographer based in Isleworth (Telephone number Hounslow 4178!), but when and where? These are presumably ACF, are badged Royal Fusiliers, but what would the shoulder title read?
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[Sonofacqms]

What makes you think they are ACF?

I would say 1940's-50's National Servicemen, probably on an Armistice Day parade judging by the "wet look" on the street and the civillians raincoat.

The shoulder title could well be Royal Artillery as I believe some Fusiliers served as gunners. Perhaps other more knowledgeable members could help with this aspect.

[Old Smelly]

Not certain of date but some clues could be drawn from the uniform, they are wearing GS caps which I think began to be replaced by the khaki beret in 1946, all appear to be wearing 1940 pat BD and the rifles look like No1 Mk3
Lee

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Mike Jackson

A very atmospheric photograph taken by a photographer based in Isleworth (Telephone number Hounslow 4178!), but when and where? These are presumably ACF, are badged Royal Fusiliers, but what would the shoulder title read?
Attachment 43732

I think they are Honourable Artillery Company rather than Royal Fusiliers and the titles are the red on dark blue of the artillery. They are, as mentioned, wearing the General Service Caps that were introduced in 1943.

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

I think they are Honourable Artillery Company rather than Royal Fusiliers and the titles are the red on dark blue of the artillery. They are, as mentioned, wearing the General Service Caps that were introduced in 1943.

Toby,

If they are HAC, would there be a particular reason why they are wearing the HAC Infantry cap badge (flaming grenade) as opposed to the HAC Artillery cap badge (Artillery gun)?

With thanks,

Peter

[johnG]

Would there be a particular reason why they are wearing the HAC Infantry cap badge (flaming grenade) as opposed to the HAC Artillery cap badge (Artillery gun)?

The Cadet Battalion of the HAC wore the cap badge of the Infantry Battalion HAC. The gunners of the HAC did not have a Cadet Battalion.

The Cadet Battalion wore shoulder titles white on red 'Honourable Artiullery company' and below it A.C.F. also white on red. At no time that I know of did they wear a 'Royal Artillery' shoulder title.

The style of buildings in the picture do not look like roads along which the Cadet Battalion would have usually marched, i.e. City Road, Finsbury Pavement, Moorgate, Princes Street, Guildhall, Mansion House.........they do not look like City of London properties.

Final point: To my certain knowledge the GS cap was issued and worn by HAC Cadets certainly in 1948, and I think 1949, I do not know beyond that.

BUT, that having been said, it does look like a grenade over the corporal's stripes, as worn by the HAC Cadets, and the flames of the grenade cap badge look like HAC.

Regards,

John

Originally Posted by johnG

Would there be a particular reason why they are wearing the HAC Infantry cap badge (flaming grenade) as opposed to the HAC Artillery cap badge (Artillery gun)?

The Cadet Battalion of the HAC wore the cap badge of the Infantry Battalion HAC. The gunners of the HAC did not have a Cadet Battalion.

The Cadet Battalion wore shoulder titles white on red 'Honourable Artiullery company' and below it A.C.F. also white on red. At no time that I know of did they wear a 'Royal Artillery' shoulder title.

The style of buildings in the picture do not look like roads along which the Cadet Battalion would have usually marches, i.e. City Road, Finsbury Pavement, Moorgate, Princes Street, Guildhall, Mansion House.........they do not look like City of London properties.

Final point: To my certain knowledge the GS cap was issued and worn by HAC Cadets certainly in 1948, and I think 1949, I do not know beyond that.

To sum up, I am of the opinion they are not HAC Cadets. I hope this helps.

Regards,

John

John,

Would the same apply to the badges being worn if these chaps were not cadets?

Regards,

Peter.

[johnG]

Not sure I understand the question Peter. Are you asking if they are members of the HAC Infantry Battalion? They look too young for that, and the Battalion was not raised again after WW2 until, I think it was 1947 - I would have to look that up.

Something which does occur to me is although the gunners of the HAC did not have a Cadet Battalion, the Cadets undertook all Guards of Honour in the City before the Infantry Battalion reformed, and during that period they fired a salute at the Tower of London - 25 pounder guns I think - is it possible that for the occasion they wore R.A. shoulder titles? I do not know, but will try to find out.

I will do some research and see what it triggers in the old memory.

Cheers for now,

John

Sorry John, entirely my fault.

Your first reply refers to cadets only, in which you state:

• The Cadet Battalion of the HAC wore the cap badge of the Infantry Battalion HAC
• Gunners did not have a Cadet Battalion.

Therefore, if the men in the photo are cadets, then they are wearing the correct HAC cap badge.

However, if they are not cadets, is it possible that they could wear the HAC Infantry cap badge AND Royal Artillery shoulder titles?

In short, would the Infantry Bn HAC (not cadets) ever wear RA shoulder titles and HAC Infantry cap badge?

I think I am more confused now than I was at the beginning

PJ

[johnG]

Hi Peter,
I cannot think of any occasion on which the Infantry Battalion cap badge would have been woirn with Royal Artillery shoulder titles. I cannot remember off-hand when the long 'Honourable Artillery Comapny' shoulder title first came into use........and the brass 'H.A.C.' would have been the only other alternative I can think of.

There is one point to check out: That salute with 25 pdrs fired by the Cadet Battalion at the Tower of London. Were gun crews of Cadets attached to the Royal Artillery for training, and wore the R.A. shoulder titles? If so then wher did they do their training? In 1948 the HAC Cadet Battalion held its annual camp at Orsett Camp, Grays, Nr. Tilbury (I hope I got those names in the right order), when the Royal Artillery were based there.

This has got me hooked, I will have to dig into it some more.

Regards,

john

John,

Excellent stuff; thanks for clearing that up, mate.

All the best,

Peter.

[Mike Jackson]

Originally Posted by Sonofacqms

What makes you think they are ACF?

I would say 1940's-50's National Servicemen, probably on an Armistice Day parade judging by the "wet look" on the street and the civillians raincoat.

The shoulder title could well be Royal Artillery as I believe some Fusiliers served as gunners. Perhaps other more knowledgeable members could help with this aspect.

Thanks all who have commented. ACF - I assumed that the badge on the left forearm of two of those on the right of the photo is a cadet marksman's badge of some sort - a rifle surmounted by a star. Does the man on the left under the words Navy Cut have a cloth backing to his cap badge?
Mike

[johnG]

Sorry Mike, my old eyes are not up to seeing detail of the badges, but I am now hooked on this one and have come up with the undernoted paragraph from 'Honorable Artillery company' by G.Gould Walker, DSO, MC, FSA, FRHistS, page 241.

'At the invitation of the military authorities, an H.A.C. Cadet Battalion was formed and recruited in 1942, with head-quarters at Armoury House. This unit took over the functions of the Battalion in supplying guards of honour at Guildhall and Mansion House on many official occasions. They even trained gun detachments which fired salutes at the Tower of London during the absence of the Batteries overseas and during the periof of 'suspended animantion'

The period of 'suspended animation' enfded with the units reforming on 5 May 1947.

I note the Cadet Battalion 'Trained gun detachments'. This might indeed suggest possibly working with the Royal Artillery for a period ?????

Incidently, the gentleman (name witheld) who signed as Cadet No. 1 at the Mansion House in 1942 later became Secretary of the Company (HAC) for many years.

I will continue digging.

Regards,

John

[Toby Purcell]

Is it possible that although wearing the 'infantry' badge they have 'HAC' (as opposed to 'RA') titles in red on blue at that time. It does not seem beyond the realms of possibility given that their title is "artillery". That seems to me to be the lost likely explanation. The man front at far right as you look is indeed wearing a cadet marksman's badge of star over a horizontal rifle.

[johnG]

Hi Toby,
'Artillery' in the sense of the HAC originally meant bows and arrows, not guns.

Sadly I simply cannot remember what shoulder title preceded the long, white on red 'Honourable Artillery Company' shoulder title in the Infantry Battalion, or what was originally worn by the Cadet Battalion, but I do have a very clear recollection of brass HA.C. shoulder titles worn by 1st and 2nd Regiments HAC, and G Locating Battery, and those brass titles had been around for a very long time.

I think I remember a khaki serge slip on s/title with H.A.C. embroidered on it in black, but for the life of me I cannot remember seeing it worn.......I can only plead it was a long, long time ago.

I will peck away at this one, as I would like to get it sorted.

Regards,

John