Mons Bar

[Mike_2817]

Originally Posted by Nozzer

Another type of clasp that you will encounter is the slip on type.

These were available from tailors at the time. They are the closest you will get to an official replacement and are quite acceptable.

(apologies for picture quality)

I'm glad you illustrated that, as my Grandfathers bar is of this type, he was British Legion and had his medals mounted in the 30's

I also have his medal ribbons with rose

[Peter Brydon]

Members of the Liverpool Scottish who went to France with the first contingent qualified for the 1914 star but not for the clasp ( see the attached note from the DNW catalogue from the sale of the Hal Giblin collection) but that did not stop them awarding themselves a clasp or rosette.

Attached is a picture of a Liverpool Scottish medal group from my collection with a rosette on the ribbon on the 1914 star, this is not an uncommon thing to find on Liverpool Scottish medal groups and of course by the very fact that it was not something that the battalion qualified for, any clasps or rosettes on Liverpool Scottish 14 stars must be contemporary tailors copies.

Doesn't seem to affect the value of such groups.

P.B.

[Mike B]

Hello All

I am not a medal collector but have a 'representative' grouping to Major John March Diggles - 6th Bn Cheshire Regiment. JM Diggles was Brigade Major 118 Infantry Bde and was awarded DSO, MC and Bar, 1914 Star Trio - I don't think he gained the TF Long Service Medal (but am not sure). He was awarded his Bar to MC for putting luminous tapes out before the attack on Ancre heights 13-18 Nov 1916.

My question is whether my representative MINIATURE MEDAL group (which accompanies his attribute blue cloth helmet in tin) should include a 'bar' on his miniature 1914 Star. 6th Cheshire's were one of the first TF Bns be posted abroad. This is not a subject I know much about.

Any help, advice, thoughts would be much appreciated.

Also any help in finding a genuine example if members of the Forum advise it to be appropriate.

Regards and thanks

Mike

PS - Sorry to go slightly off theme of this thread.

[Alex Rice]

Hi Mike
As far as I understand, all servicemen who went over to France before the 22nd of November became entitled to the 1914 Star. Saying this, they were only eligible for the clasp if they were under enemy fire during this period, so it is possible to find 1914 Stars without clasps to people who never made it to the front in this time. To find out whether he is missing a clasp you'd need to do some in depth research to see whether he went to the front.
Cheers,
Alex

[Mike B]

Hello Alex

Many thanks for your reply. Which prompted me to dig further - from your information it looks like the bar was missed by a whisker. That said - I was told JM Diggles' medal card may have said '1914 Star and Bar' - more digging required perhaps - but no rosette on his ribbon in the portrait below.

The following may be of interest and has an interesting twist ...

The men of 6th Battalion Cheshire Reg had been in Summer camp at Rhyl in 1914, and were in a high state of efficiency when the orders for mobilisation were issued on 4th August. The men of 8 companies turned up at their respective drill halls almost to a man, and after medical inspection, and filling 200 vacancies the battalion left Stockport for Shrewsbury. Before embarking for France in early November 1914 Lt Col GB Heywood took over command. His two Majors being H Hesse and R Rostron. The Adjutant (until 29 November) was our man - Capt J.M. Diggles. The Battalion arrived at Le Havre on 10th November 1914 and remained in rest camp for 3 days. On November 17 a detachment formed part of the escort for the funeral of the late Earl Roberts. The remainder of the Battalion - along with other troops -lined the streets. From 20 November to 9 December the Battalion was billeted in the district of Helfaut and Bilques, two villages south of St Omer. They then had a three day march to the front. On11 December half the Battalion, under Major R Rostron went in to the trenches at Wulverghem - just over the Belgian Border - about six and a half miles south by west of Ypres. The trenches were in a dreadful condition The two halves of the battalion took turns of 48 hours in the trenches.

Of passing interest - Harold Hesse - who became CO of 6th Cheshire from 18 December 1914 to 1 July 1916 and had a further period in Command before leaving the Battalion on 4 June 1918 - had served in 4 VB Cheshire - is believed to have received military training in Germany before emigrating to the United Kingdom - quite a twist. I have his engraved sword as illustrated.

[manchesters]

To answer the original queation.

The clasp is a COPY.

regards

[spreadeagle]

Hello all,
Regarding the issue of the clasp to the "Mons" Star.I have several 1914 Stars,mainly to cavalry regiments.

Two of them were posthumously issued to early casualties,they being, 5305 Pte A H Taylor - 1 D G - KIA 30/10/14,& 4733 Pte A E Skeet - 6 D G - KIA 31/10/14.
Given that the criteria for the issue of the clasp was that the recipient had to be within range of enemy guns during to the set time period to qualify,why are the 1st & 6th DG's excluded, when they had personnel actually killed in action?

Cheers.
Alan

[Frank Kelley]

Quite simply, neither are excluded, both are certainly entitled, a brief look at WO372 shows Taylor was so entitled and it is clearly shown.
The group to Skeet is very nice in particular as he is an August man and an original member of the BEF from the start.

Originally Posted by spreadeagle

Hello all,
Regarding the issue of the clasp to the "Mons" Star.I have several 1914 Stars,mainly to cavalry regiments.

Two of them were posthumously issued to early casualties,they being, 5305 Pte A H Taylor - 1 D G - KIA 30/10/14,& 4733 Pte A E Skeet - 6 D G - KIA 31/10/14.
Given that the criteria for the issue of the clasp was that the recipient had to be within range of enemy guns during to the set time period to qualify,why are the 1st & 6th DG's excluded, when they had personnel actually killed in action?

Cheers.
Alan

[Mike B]

Simon

Perhaps your reminder of the original post provides me with an opportunity to apologise for slightly hijacking this thread - I appreciate the expertise and advice received from Forum members and felt it a good opportunity to raise something that has been puzzling me for quite a while.

Regards

Mike

[conijoni]

[QUOTE=manchesters;282456]To answer the original queation.

The clasp is a COPY.

Thank you Simon.
I would be interested to know how to distinguish between a copy and an original.

[manchesters]

In Howard Williamson's excellent works "the Great War Companion" parts 1 & 2 there are excellent sections on how to recognise copies.

However on this one you dont need the book, as has already been mentioned its the 4 holes.

They should be always be tucked right into the corners.

regards

[conijoni]

Thanks Simon. And Thank You to everyone else. I appreciate you input. Johnny

[spreadeagle]

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley

Quite simply, neither are excluded, both are certainly entitled, a brief look at WO372 shows Taylor was so entitled and it is clearly shown.
The group to Skeet is very nice in particular as he is an August man and an original member of the BEF from the start.

Thanks Frank.
Unfortunately I don't have access to that document,and I only have the 14 Star for both persons.The omissions for the 1st & 6th D G in the bar link are probably explained by the note above the original unit listing ;

(Note the "Appendix A" shown here is as amended by Army order 52 of 1920 and army order 70 of 1921. some units are removed and some are added to the original AO361 by these amendments).

[spreadeagle]

[QUOTE=conijoni;282492]

Originally Posted by manchesters

To answer the original queation.

The clasp is a COPY.

Thank you Simon.
I would be interested to know how to distinguish between a copy and an original.

Obviously someone thought this eBay lot was exceptional going by the last bid price!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1414424332...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT