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#31
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Hello,
Here are 3 badges "made in England". ( A fourth badge existe with bades...) In the middle, white (a sort of nickel ?) metal. Stangely, the 2 brass badges have two different sizes, wich means two different tools ... Best regards .. Herve |
#32
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Superb display Herve
Do you think any of these were used as replacements actually in WW2? I find it difficult to believe they would be, given issues to VIPs were of the official numbered type - and registered as such. My personal belief is that all are post-war souvenir's, but your opinion would be very much valued. Thanks as ever for posting - always great to hear your thoughts, and see your posts All the very best Mike |
#33
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Hello Mike,
I should like to deliver a scoop but ... I must agree with your pesonnal belief, they have nothing to do with the official BFMC numbered badge. They are post ww2 souvenirs ... with a nice strike. Best regards .. Herve |
#34
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All the best Mike |
#35
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Details on 'Made in England' Badge
Herve, Very intriguing comparison suggesting at least two batches of the ‘Made in England’ badge existed. The original badge measured 45 mil in height, 42 mil wide at the top of the shield.
Made in England two sizes.jpg It would be interesting to know the exact measurements of your two badges. I added a bit of background information about the original badge creation process: In March 1944, Capt Kieffer decided to go ahead with the badge creation for his 1st FM Commando Unit. Cpl Chauvet who had worked on several projects already with Lt Trepel was tasked with the job. M. Chauvet: ‘’The title of the unit was long, and I imagined supporting the shield with a ribbon, a very maritime ornament, bearing a naval anchor on the left and a star on the right, reminiscent of the Corps Francs and independent companies of 1939-40. The model sent to London was drawn on a large scale on cardboard, with the help of plates and saucers, as all I had at the time was a small compass.’’ For the prototype, the size of the badge had to be decided. The dimensions adopted correspond to the Royal Sussex badge, i.e. 45 mil in height. A dozen badges were struck by Gaunt and submitted in the early days of April to admiral d'Argenlieu for approval. He rejected the star on the right of the ribbon because it was too closely associated with the US or USSR. It was decided to replace it with another anchor. The striking corner was engraved by one of Gaunt's best craftsmen, who initially refused to modify his work. After some discussion, he agreed to drill a hole of a few millimetres in the form and insert a small pellet bearing the second anchor. As a result of this, a very slight mark can be seen on the right-hand side of the ribbon close to the shank of the anchor (see below a close up of an original badge #122) Right Anchor Default.JPG Interestingly enough, I can see a similar mark on an example of the ‘Made in England’ badge, which suggest that it could have been stricken from the original Gaunt corner as Paul (Belly) suspected here https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...9&postcount=14 Right Anchor Default on Beret.jpg As for the association of the ‘Made in England’ badge with the movie, I believe M. Chauvet wanted to say the badges were produced at the time of the movie (1962) but not as props for the actors. Georges Riviere & Gilles Delamare.jpg From left to right, Georges Riviere & Gilles Delamare who portrayed respectively SM de Montlaur & Mot Devagers Christian Marquand closeup.jpg Christian Marquand as Capt Kieffer in the movie. All were equipped with modern Commando Marine badges (5 mil higher than the original 1st BFM badges) |
#36
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I have a photo of the blades one, but not gonna post it as I don't have the autorisation of it's owner. That confirm my theory of several copies/restrikes made. I have the exact same one as you, the one on the left. I would like to discuss all of this more privately because we are giving too much details to the fakers here ie dimensions and all. I have already been talking to this subject with Mike B privately. Best |
#37
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Thanks Tcrown for your reply as well.
Please don't give the exact dimensions here for fakers. In private it is better IMO. Yes the story of the creation of the badge is well known but it is the first time I'm seing those details with the corresponding size with a Royal Sussex badge. Same for Gaunt's best craftman story. Where have you found those details ? any sources ? I have around 20 photos of different original 1BFMC badges and this theory of the right anchor black stain is not seen properly elsewhere clearly. I will have to study that more. That being said I agree 100% with Paul, you, the front of a "real" Made In England badge is the verbatim copy of an original badge. When was it made ? We need to find more evidences. For the longest day story told by Maurice Chauvet as you said, maybe they were made at the same time but not worn. If so who would have make them ? Maurice said he heard 600 units of those badges were made. That's a lot. "they were produced in england, their back are hollowed and it is written made in england. Several collectors own them". In a letter correspondance I have from 1988 he said the same thing again but this time 200 to 300 units made. He said the ones made for veterans were the 1974 souvenirs star one and the JR Gaunt C 1943 ones. I have several proofs photos of that worn during commemorations over the years. Best |
#38
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It is weird that the ‘made in England’ was not popular amongst veterans |
#39
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Ok I have one book from him I have to read "Mille et un jour pour le jour J". Will write to you in PM. |
#40
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Hello Gentlemen,
Please find the mesures ... (I don't have a digital caliper...) Best regards .. Herve |
#41
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It is good to see how this discussion has evolved.
I have massive resect for Maurice - but from experience know his recollections are not always 100% correct. The tale provided to me regarding Rene Eugiene Deuil badge in my ownership (267) was completely wrong - the true story was unveiled by Mickael Grinie - to whom I am most grateful. I am grateful to be referred to Maurice Chauvet autobiography - I just wonder how accurate it is? - Why choose the Royal Sussex badge I wonder? The width is way off, even if height is comparable (see update not even close) . You will have to excuse some scepticism, but I find Maurice as a source unreliable, even though I admire his courage, determination, and other aspects - not least as designer of the badge. Always welcome to thoughts - and recognising these views are slightly inflammatory. This badge is full of intrigue - good to see the discussion ... Thinking aloud - The CO of No.10 (I-A) Cdo was Dudley Lister - Buffs (Royal East Kent Reg) - he was succeeded by Peter Laycock in May 1944 ( Nottinghamshire Yeomanry) - I have not measured those badges but wonder if one of those could be the one Maurice meant? UPDATE Just roughly checked measurements of Royal Sussex - Width 36mm, height 40mm. This is way off the height of a genuine badge (I notice Elwe does not want to disclose those dimensions here) Buffs (purely for interest) - Width 43mm Height 34mm - so not that either. Last edited by Mike B; 26-02-24 at 03:46 PM. |
#42
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Mike, unfortunately inaccuracies are quite common with veterans' accounts especially when written 50 years after the war. M. Chauvet is no exception as it is the case also with is comrades from the French commando. Even Capt Kieffer's official report of D-Day issued on June 14, 1944 brings some inaccurate details.
Nevertheless, I thought it would be interesting to read about the creation process of this unique and famous badge. I sent you a PM. |
#43
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#44
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Maybe it was based on another badge but dimensions could have changed. Maybe it was just an inspiration who knows with Maurice. Thanks Hervé for your measurements. I will not say more in the open public but it is confirming exactly what I have been working on. There must be some archives of the matrix/mold Gaunt used to do the real thing with their initial dimensions. Maurice said the JR Gaunt C 1943 was made by Gaunt also. Dimensions are really close to the original cap badge but details are not as good as the Made in England one. Also with Mike GR we are gonna try if we can find some french archives. |
#45
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Thanks Herve. I sent you a PM.
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