Gurkha Signals 2 Piece cap badge

[hagwalther]

Hi Guys,

I'll throw some info in here but please be aware that I am coming from a War Office/Ministry of Defence level and I will state here that I do not believe that any Gurkha Signals badge, in AA, was officially authorised for issue.

This badge may have been commissioned at Gurkha Signals Corps level but that is another thing altogether.

These are notes 5 and 6 (of 6 separate notes) that I have for this particular badge as taken from my forthcoming book:


5. At the 169th Meeting of the Army Dress Committee, held on 1st December 1965, the Committee decided that the Gurkha Signals would adopt the cap badge of the Royal Corps of Signals.

6. A standard sealed pattern card for this badge, dated 28th June 1967, holds an example of the previously existing GM/WM one piece badge. This GM/WM pattern card was later used as a guide for anodised aluminium usage (see Appendix 3: Patterns Sealed). As this date is after the decision to adopt the Royal Corps of Signals cap badge it is unlikely that any official A/A Gurkha Signals cap badges were ever bulk manufactured in anodised aluminium. Any Gurkha Signals badge that may have been used by the unit were probably from existing GM/WM stocks. As such, the author believes that while a one piece anodised aluminium cap badge was officially authorised for issue for the Gurkha Signals none were officially bulk manufactured.

Remember that I am coming from a War Office/MoD level so please keep this in mind before bombarding me with PM's saying that I'm wrong - which of course I may well be...

Also note that I will not be bidding for this item.

Regards

Chris

[Chris Walker]

Dear Chris.

Delighted to see your reply regarding the MOD/War Office information regarding the one piece Gurkha Signals badge regulation from 1967. Always nice to have something concrete to use when writing up or requesting info on badges.

In my opion you are absolutely correct that there was never a ruling for a two piece Gurkha Signals cap badge to be bulk manufactured made by the MOD. It is my view and I state this on my little web site that this two piece badge was ordered by the regiment in the 1970's and probably made at "Gun Club Hill Barracks" Kowloon, Hong Kong and possibly made only for the Corps of Pipes and Drums.

Of all the 2 Piece Badges that appear on this Thread and show the reverse side there are no makers marks at all. This gives a little more evadence that it was a locally made (Probably Hong Kong) item. My version certainly carries no markings.

Good luck to the winner of the badge. They are rare.

Best wishes

Chris Walker
www.signalsbadges.co.uk

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by Chris Walker

Dear Chris.

Delighted to see your reply regarding the MOD/War Office information regarding the one piece Gurkha Signals badge regulation from 1967. Always nice to have something concrete to use when writing up or requesting info on badges.

In my opion you are absolutely correct that there was never a ruling for a two piece Gurkha Signals cap badge to be bulk manufactured made by the MOD. It is my view and I state this on my little web site that this two piece badge was ordered by the regiment in the 1970's and probably made at "Gun Club Hill Barracks" Kowloon, Hong Kong and possibly made only for the Corps of Pipes and Drums.

Of all the 2 Piece Badges that appear on this Thread and show the reverse side there are no makers marks at all. This gives a little more evadence that it was a locally made (Probably Hong Kong) item. My version certainly carries no markings.

Good luck to the winner of the badge. They are rare.

Best wishes

Chris Walker
www.signalsbadges.co.uk

Hi Chris,

Here is some more info:

1. The officially authorised for issue cap badge is believed (by me) to be a one piece item.

2. At the 58th Meeting of the War Office Dress Committee, held on 16th January 1953, the Committee approved the pattern of the Gurkha Signals cap badge. Unfortunately, the composition of the badge, single-item or multi-item, was not recorded.

3. At the 112th Meeting of the War Office Dress Committee, held on 6th August 1958, the pattern of the Gurkha Signals cap badge was approved by the Committee subject to final approval by the Sovereign. Unfortunately, the composition of the badge (single-item or multi-item) was not recorded.

4. Contract No. 0144 consisted of 84 badges that were sent to Branston. It is not know if these badges were A/A or if they were existing GM/WM stock.

Reference: - Branston Delivery Document - A memorandum of delivered and outstanding contracts titled MINISTRY BADGES, dated 13th May 1960, unlabelled and held in file WO 32/16956, the National Archives, Kew,
London.



The badge shown on eBay consists of the small plate used with (what I believe to be) the early Royal Signals cap badge, a crown which looks the same as that from the any era Royal Signals two part item (not the vertical shank version though). The body of the badge could be a collar tab perhaps with the lug moved around the other way?

As previously noted: I do not believe that the badge shown is an offically authorised War Office/MoD item although it could have been made up from composite parts at regimental level etc.

Not for me though.

Hope this is of possible interest.

Regards

Chris

[Mike H]

The older Royal Signals backplate is a lot wider than the newer one.

But look at the crowns on the examples shown,one is voided the others arent,also it would appear that there is a difference in size.Id come to the conclusion that there were more than one batch made .The QGS were still wearing an anodised badge in 1999-2000 when they were stationed in the UK near Nuneaton as part of 30 Sigs (i think) (white swan on black square TRF).

[hagwalther]

COSA 1993

Queens Gurkha Signals

8455-99-974-1046 - White metal and gilding metal; gold and silver - Soldiers

8455-99-130-3785 - Gilding metal, gilt and silver plated; gold and silver

I doubt if they would have reverted back to an A/A one six years later.

Regards

Chris

[Chris Walker]

Dear All

Very interesting point that Mike H has brought up. I have never really noticed before. The size and type of crown.

UK Brits version of the crown is very small which is correct and is voided which is unusual. The back plate is too small for the style of badge in my opinion.

54 Bty crown again is voided but looks to be too big, more like a conventional signals badge crown. However as suggested in this thread could be of a different batch.

Bess 55 Looks to be the genuine article.

Paddy's version looks to again be the genuine article which is like mine.

For what it is worth my version came from the Cliff Lord collection and came with the fatter looking back plate which I believe is the correct size for the badge to fit on and looks like a few of the other examples shewn in this thread.

All the above is my opinion only and I have no reason to believe that there was not more than one style of the 2 piece badge ever made.

Best wishes

Chris Walker
www.signalsbadges.co.uk

[Mike H]

Chris W,with regard to the backplates.

When in joined the Royal Signals in 1980 the backplate was fat and stubby like the examples shown in the QGS pictures.But ive noticed that newer R.Signals badges have a smaller blackplate width wise,saving brass no doubt.

[Chris Walker]

Dear Mike.

Thanks for the info regarding the back plate. You know, when I joined the Royal Signals in 1964 I really do not recall having a back plate to my "Jimmy" cap badge.

I think we used cardboard or some such material but having said that my first issue badge was the type with the crown and long metal piece attached not split pins. Would that have made a difference or am I forgetting something.

The two piece Gurkha Signals badge finally sold for £56.50. Take my word for it as a Signals Badge collector is a very reasonable price. Have seen them go for three didgit sums in the past.

Best wishes

Chris Walker
www.signalsbadges.co.uk

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by Chris Walker

Dear Mike.

Thanks for the info regarding the back plate. You know, when I joined the Royal Signals in 1964 I really do not recall having a back plate to my "Jimmy" cap badge.

I think we used cardboard or some such material but having said that my first issue badge was the type with the crown and long metal piece attached not split pins. Would that have made a difference or am I forgetting something.

The two piece Gurkha Signals badge finally sold for £56.50. Take my word for it as a Signals Badge collector is a very reasonable price. Have seen them go for three didgit sums in the past.

Best wishes

Chris Walker
www.signalsbadges.co.uk

Hi Chris,

Your Signals badge was the Crown and Vertical Shank version being the second of three patterns that was officially authorised for issue.

Its pattern number was 16685 and CB number was CB 7246. It was first mention in the List of Changes C 6760 of the 30th September 1955 and declared obsolete (due to fitting problems) on the 26th April 1958. Looks like the Army was keeping to the official line of using up old before issuing a new version with pin and plate even in 1964.

re: Gurkha two piece. Note that the original GM/WM pattern card that was used as a guide for A/A badges was a one piece item and so is the 'New Metal' version used post A/A.

Regards

Chris

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by 54Bty

Here are two other GSigs badges that I have, both are metal, one is cast.

Hi 54Bty,

The cast badge was, so I believe, made by M. Azam & Sons located in Lahore, Pakistan.

Regards

Chris

[Mike H]

Originally Posted by hagwalther

re: Gurkha two piece. Note that the original GM/WM pattern card that was used as a guide for A/A badges was a one piece item and so is the 'New Metal' version used post A/A.

Regards

Chris

I had an original wm/gm version,the gold almost looked painted on.Theres a very similar coloured wm/gm Gurkha Engineers on e..y at the moment

[Chris Walker]

Dear All.

They are still being sold as a two piece as there is one up for sale on ebay today. It looks like the one I have and the one Paddy and the one Bess55 has to name but a few. This one has no back plate though.

I am convinced as I have said before they were made in Hong Kong in the 1970's.

The crown to me still looks like it was made for the badge and not an old Signals badge. Far too small.

For me this badge is for real. My thoughts of course.

Cheers

Chris Walker
www.signalsbadges.co.uk

[2747andy]

I knew these were scarce but

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261554587990

WOW

Andy

[gurkharifles]

I think someone is going to be very disappointed - look at the back image - it's not a two piece badge - although I must admit I thought it was when I looked at the front photo in isolation. I'm not sure where the buyer will stand because there's no flaw in the description !

[hagwalther]

And with lugs like that do you really think it came for a UK manufacturer?

Also, is it actually anodised aluminium?

Regards

Chris