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  #1  
Old 18-06-12, 01:14 AM
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slick_mick slick_mick is offline
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Default Royal Australian Garrison Artillery badges - circa 1900 to 1912

Royal Australian Garrison Artillery badges - circa 1900 to 1912

Hat badge, collar badges and brass titles.



Enjoy!

Mick
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  #2  
Old 15-03-16, 10:28 AM
narns1 narns1 is offline
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hi i have just found a raga title just wondering if they are rare and worth much

as there is next to no information on google

sorry for the original post i was a bit excited

thanks

Last edited by narns1; 30-03-16 at 12:26 PM.
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  #3  
Old 15-03-16, 08:34 PM
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Hi,

Maybe an introduction could be in order first?

Given this is your first post, how about letting us know a bit about you first before asking anonymously for information?

Thanks

Mick
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  #4  
Old 23-03-16, 02:15 AM
Artynut Artynut is offline
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Ouch Mick, That was a bit harsh!, narns1 maybe like me, an "old fart" who may have difficulty negotiating around (to him) a new site. I also thought I saw somewhere that you don't HAVE to introduce yourself to the forum? Best regards, David J.
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  #5  
Old 23-03-16, 02:32 AM
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Sorry mate - I didn't mean to be harsh.

Lets just say I would prefer to see people make a contribution first to the forum via meaningful posts rather than just asking for something first.

Makes the forum a much more useful resource for everyone.



Mick
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  #6  
Old 23-03-16, 06:50 AM
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Hi Mick, and any of the other Australian collectors on the forum - I have a question for you.

Has anybody ever seen or held a genuine RAA hat grenade with the GvR cypher on the ball.

I'm asking for a couple of reasons which should become apparent:
1. the GvR badge depicted in Festberg is a photo of a GvR button superimposed over a photo of an EviiR RAA grenade.
2. the badge in Cossum is a photo of the badge in the Bob Gray Collection, Army Museum of SA - more on that later.
3. there is a photograph of a GvR RAA grenade in The Queenslander, article dated 12 March 1931, it appears to be brass.
4. about 2009 I was given a black and white photograph of what appears to be an oxidised GvR RAA grenade in very good condition but with some marks around the neck of the grenade which I am unable to fully identify - regrettably I don't have permission to post that photograph on the forum although I was told at the time it was from the Bob Gray Collection.
5. at about the same time I was told that there had been an Australian badge collector at one of the gun shows showing off a GvR RAA grenade he had picked up from a Bosley's auction. My informant was unable to remember whether it was brass or oxidised.

As RAA badges are part of one of my ongoing projects I decided to follow up on the example in the Bob Gray Collection, believing it to be the oxidised example I had a photo of. I had a friend in Adelaide photograph the badge, he only originally photographed the front, photo of which is attached for comment by members before I go any further.

I might note that the friend was acquainted with Bob Gray and had been given some B&W photographs of all the artillery badges worn in South Australia pre- and post- Federation by Bob. He was able to identify these photographs as being given to him in 1961 and the badge in the attached photo was in Bob's collection in that year!

Keith
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File Type: jpg RAGA GRV.jpg (69.7 KB, 49 views)

Last edited by fairlie63; 23-03-16 at 07:10 AM. Reason: words twice
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  #7  
Old 23-03-16, 09:45 AM
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hi keith
from memory i do remember a GvR RAA hat grenade sold at Bosleys. i cant remember the figure and will try and look it up for you but i have a feeling it was several thousand dollars.
i also seem to remember Les Stillman or Dave Wright having one. if interested follow them up about it.
again from memory they were what i would call brass(tarnished) or looked the same as the one in your picture.
bc
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Old 24-03-16, 08:18 AM
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Thanks bc, I will be interested in the price and the fact that a genuine article may be floating around.

Ok, seeing there is no comment on the badge in the photo, here is the second part of my story.

When I had a good look at that photo and compared it with my EviiR RAA grenade badges I found that the flames were worn more than the ball and that the patina differed, there was no neck on the ball, the cypher was tilted slightly to the left, the ball didn't seem to be as domed as the EviiR examples or the photo I had of a GvR badge and it was slightly bigger. Finally there was a line of braze between the ball and the flames, heat discolouration in that area, and a blob of braze on the ball.

My conclusion was that this was a badge made up by brazing the flames of an EviiR grenade onto a GvR RAA button shell and I asked for photos of the rear of the badge.

That photo is as attached - draw your own conclusions as to the originality of the badge, it is on the left, the one on your right being an EviiR for comparison.

Of two published references to Australian pre-1953 badges, one has a photo of a fake, another has a fake photo. A major collection, regarded as one of the biggest and most complete in Australia, has a fake badge in it. In fact I contacted Jeff Cossum while I was waiting for the photos of the rear to ask if he had noted any of the above points when he photographed the badge some 30 plus years ago. He said he didn't, which is quite possible if the badge was mounted on a backing board which I think they originally were.

Scales of clothing issues were changed for the RAFA and RAGA in late 1916 to provide for the issue of copper oxidised badges only. Photographs show the brass EviiR badge still being worn in early 1916 and I have both oxidised and bronzed (or a similar coating) EviiR grenades in my collection which probably means they were still being manufactured in 1917.

So, it is questionable if the GvR badge was ever issued - perhaps the odd (one or two) examples that exist were samples supplied by Gaunts or Stokes (Bridgeland and King also appear to have been a manufacturer of EviiR RAA grenades) and the design was not taken up because of the outbreak of war, or they did not appear until late in the war when the supply of regimental badges at home would not have been a priority. The large RAA grenade was replaced by the gilt RAA cypher in PVCN 1920-21, these could have barely been issued as the gilt 'rising sun' became the PMF badge in May 1921, yet more of these gilt cyphers exist than GvR grenades!

Thus the reason I am asking if anybody has actually seen one of these badges.

Stay safe over Easter gents, plenty of idiots around today on the roads.
Keith
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File Type: jpg ER VII & GR V RAGA Cap Badge reverse.jpg (37.9 KB, 41 views)
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  #9  
Old 30-03-16, 12:27 PM
narns1 narns1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by narns1 View Post
hi i have just found a raga title just wondering if they are rare and worth much

as there is next to no information on google

sorry for the original post i was a bit excited

thanks
any help would be much appreciated

thanks

corey
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  #10  
Old 31-03-16, 07:11 AM
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Hi Corey,

Welcome to the forum.

These are not rare but scarce, being worn from at least 1914-1921 in brass and oxidised copper, and turn up from time to time.

Depending on condition they might be worth from AUD$45-$75 going on the last couple I have picked up.

Keith
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  #11  
Old 31-03-16, 11:56 AM
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hi corey
agree with keith. reckon around the $50 mark
what else do you have?
bc
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  #12  
Old 01-04-16, 06:10 AM
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Default Another scan of Bob Grey's

Thanks Keith for the research on these GeoV badges. Here is a scan of Bob Grey's which I first saw in 1962. It never occurred to me to compare detail with the EdV11 badge beside it. It certainly does not look right either in this picture or in yours. The scan is not very clear (enlarged from a badge board).
I will try to organise a photo of another GeoV badge.
Cossum's book had to use a button with the flames superimposed but I have never actually seen a GeoV button: does anyone have one?
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  #13  
Old 04-04-16, 09:34 AM
kingsley kingsley is online now
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Default Geo V arty badge

Here are the promised scans, can't provide any provenance. There may be at least two more examples out there somewhere, one apparently bought at auction and another seen recently at an arms fair.
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File Type: jpg artyfront.jpg (45.4 KB, 29 views)
File Type: jpg artyback2.jpg (44.1 KB, 29 views)
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  #14  
Old 04-04-16, 10:00 AM
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Default At a closer look!

Nicely done, and possibly old, but yet another fake. The badge has had the EdV11 cypher removed and a GeoV put in. Which leaves the original question unanswered: does a genuine die-struck example exist?
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  #15  
Old 04-04-16, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsley View Post
Nicely done, and possibly old, but yet another fake. The badge has had the EdV11 cypher removed and a GeoV put in. Which leaves the original question unanswered: does a genuine die-struck example exist?
The mind boggles! Thanks kingsley for the last couple of posts, it really is making me wonder if these things existed. Some people have obviously gone to a lot of trouble - you would have to think that an original example was extant at some point for people to covet it enough to make them up.

RAA Historical Society of WA apparently have a GvR RAA button as they asked me for information about it many years ago (my father was a founding member of that organization). If I recall it may have been given to them by a bloke who found it at Port Wakefield in SA. I've never seen one but presume they must have existed at some stage if Festberg used one in his photograph.

I did follow up with Jeff C last weekend, he never saw the back of Bob Gray's badge but he was able to recall the name of the bloke who had the Bosley's GvR RAA badge at the gun show those few years ago.

Keith
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