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  #1  
Old 10-10-07, 02:11 AM
mgc mgc is offline
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Default Restrike Indicators???

After many years of collecting British badges of the great war period I have in the last decade or so collected only OSD badges of the same period, mostly because of the restrike situation.
One thing I've always wondered is the difference between gilding metal and brass. Is there a difference or same thing?
Also, I've found a huge difference in hardness of brass with some almost impossible to bend by hand while others are extremely soft. I've always considered the hardness as one of the indicators of a genuine badge with the extremely soft badges relegated to modern junk. Same goes for white metal.
From the experience of other collectors on this board, is this an accurate assessment? Thanks!
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  #2  
Old 10-10-07, 07:30 AM
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mgc,
according to 'Dress Regulations 1900' (W.Y.Carman 1969 & reprinted 1980)
gilding metal basically means a metal suitable for gilding purposes & is an alloy of 8 parts copper & 1 part zinc.
The dictionary states that brass is an alloy of copper & zinc ,containing more than 50% of copper. So I guess that they are really the same thing !!
Your assumption about the 'bendability' is a good one. Most old origionals are very hard to bend,including the sliders & lugs. The copies can vary, due to the cheaper alloys often used ,but this is getting harder to tell as they are getting more canny with their manufacturing & I'm told also that time can affect the metal stiffness also ,hardening with age.
Take care ,as I'm sure that OSD's (as are all items worth any good money now-a-days) are being 're-made' also now,but colour & finish can be a good indicator here.The origional way of 'bronzing' is hard to replicate ,unless done by using the origional processes & materials. I'm also reliably informed that 'blackened' badges were probably made in a similar way.Using a special powder,mixed to a paste,then applied by rubbing on layers,with a cloth, to the badge ,that has been heated to a temperature that will sizzle water (or spit ,was a good indicator also??).
Hope this is of a little help?
Cheers !
Steve (NZ)
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  #3  
Old 10-10-07, 08:17 AM
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Keith Blakeman Keith Blakeman is offline
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I'd go along with what Steve says, however I've found strong restrikes and weaker originals in both the badges and slider.

Another myth is that genuine badges were always perfect but again I've had or seen them with voids missing, rough edges, crooked sliders, etc, etc.

Buying badges is down to experience and even the most knowledgable still get duped from time to time even more so when you buy without handling them but then again it's amazing what bargains you can sometimes get when you take a chance.
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Old 11-10-07, 04:25 PM
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On the subject of restrike indicators, when bringing the "gaunt with a dot" type together for a photo I noticed that (on my small sample size of 4) that all the sliders were exactly the same, 36mm from back of the bend to tip, same yellow brass, same width, and thickness. can anyone else report very uniform sliders on "gaunt with a dot" types - I know thinking about it you would expect them to be uniform, as if we accept that these are the 70s mass restrikes they would be manufactured at the same time - but still interested if the majority (or all) are like this.

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Old 13-10-07, 04:51 PM
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Default Gaunt's re strike or brand new copy.

I can remember seeing boxes of Gaunt's B'ham badges for sale at a pound each at an arms fair in Leeds years ago, the gilding metal colour seemed O.K. copper/brass, but the white metal was very hard and lacked the creamy silver of good badges, also they seemed to have a lot of fold lines and mis punching voids. At the same time a lot of badges appeared, unmarked but the brass was very yellow and the white metal very dark and in possible to shine to a good luster. As a rule I would describe re-pro brass as Indian gold coloured, and gilding metal as Rose gold coloured. apart from all the dodgy stuff of today, theres also all the unofficial stuff made in two wars, and sold as replacements at rail stations and the like, also the certain badges mentioned in Kipling and King made of yellow brass. Cheers Sean.
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  #6  
Old 28-09-10, 01:56 PM
R.J. Bradshaw R.J. Bradshaw is offline
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Default Restrike Indicators

In 2001-02 I completed a series of experiments for my final year dissertation at the University of Derby, School of Environmental Science, entitled; British Army Cap Badges 1896-1953, The Detection of Restrikes; A General Guide for the Collector.

During my extensive research I found through exhaustive tests that the materials contained in genuine badges was a standardised alloy known as gilding-metal, which in tests, proved to be 89% copper (Cu) and an 11% Zinc (Zn) alloy, which absolutely, did not fluctuate in the genuine examples tested.

White Metal. although this term is widely used by badge collectors it is not technically correct. true white metal is a hard wearing tin base alloy which is widely used for coatings for bearings etc. The term "white-metal" however is a generic term that is often applied to any alloy that has a silver-white apperance, which in the case of cap-badges would perhaps be better described as white-brass. In genuine badges white metal was found to be 60% Copper, alloyed with 21% zinc (Zn) and 19% Nickel, and this also did not fluctuate in the genuine examples tested.

Yellow Brass. This very popular medium was a widely used alloy for military badges before c.1881 containing 60% Copper, and 40% zinc. In cap badges 1896-1953, this alloy was retained (probably for its strength) only as the "slider" and as a high-temperature braze to attach the slider to the badge itself. It is most likely that Gilding-metal was used as a replacement because it was cheaper to produce than yellow brass, and it offered better ductility in the die-stamping method of production.

It is these details that were the key to detecting restrikes in almost all cases because no badge produced in the restrike era, arguably 1960's onward, used these dated and volatile methods of manufacture, which have certain characteristics that can be easily discerned with a little practice. The softness of metals however, was entirely dependant on where badges were displayed or stored, and a good example of this was a collection once framed and displayed over a pub fire-place, which meant that the badges, which were all genuine I might add, were in quite a soft-state.

After I finished University (I got a 1st for it) I sent the original manuscript to two specialist military publishers, but neither were interested, because I'd used coloured plates, which was at the heart of the detection of restrikes. But nearly ten years later as the subject, obviously still arouses much debate, I often wonder if it may be time for another attempt?

Last edited by R.J. Bradshaw; 28-09-10 at 06:26 PM.
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  #7  
Old 28-09-10, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
which have certain characteristics that can be easily discerned with a little practice.
how is it done? can you expand a little more?


Quote:
During my extensive research I found through exhaustive tests that the materials contained in genuine badges was a standardised alloy known as gilding-metal, which in tests, proved to be 89% copper (Cu) and an 11% Zinc (Zn) alloy, which absolutely, did not fluctuate in the genuine examples tested.

How did the alloy's constituent metal percentages compare in the restrikes?
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Old 28-09-10, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
After I finished University (I got a 1st for it) I sent the original manuscript to two specialist military publishers, but neither were interested, because I'd used coloured plates, which was at the heart of the detection of restrikes. But nearly ten years later as the subject, obviously still arouses much debate, I often wonder if it may be time for another attempt?

If you were stuck we could always publish it on here, we're probably the most relevant site by a mile. Glory only though, we couldn't pay anything
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Old 28-09-10, 06:40 PM
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RJB

Did you write something in Crown Imperial on the subject some considerable time ago prior to doing your degree ?

Something rings a bell or am I mistaken ?

Regards

P.B.
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  #10  
Old 28-09-10, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R.J. Bradshaw View Post
But nearly ten years later as the subject, obviously still arouses much debate, I often wonder if it may be time for another attempt?

I for one would be prepared to buy a copy if you can get it published. It would obviously need a lot more orders, but maybe, in these fake/restrike ridden days, it may prove more popular?
David
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  #11  
Old 28-09-10, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike View Post
"gaunt with a dot"
Mike, the slider on mine is 38mm in lenght. The tip of the slider is oval rather than rounded and it is ever so slightly concave.
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Old 28-09-10, 08:14 PM
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There is something in the RACD ledgers in ?1897 noting the change from brass to GM and giving the metalurgical content of GM (and of GS =WM).
RJ - isn't there a thesis internet site somewhere ?
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Old 29-09-10, 01:02 PM
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fougasse1940 fougasse1940 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KLR View Post
There is something in the RACD ledgers in ?1897 noting the change from brass to GM and giving the metalurgical content of GM (and of GS =WM).
RJ - isn't there a thesis internet site somewhere ?
Gilding metal, so called through being able to be easily gilded, is defined in the 1900 Dress Regulations as “eight parts of copper to one part of zinc.” (86,7% Copper, 13,3% Zinc By weight, Royal Army Clothing Department Pattern No. 4480/1897) A brass alloy therefore, but now containing a higher portion of copper than zinc to those previously made.
White-metal or German silver, sometimes referred to as nickel-silver (64,5% Copper, 16,5% Zinc, 19,0% Nickel by weight, Royal Army Clothing Department Pattern No. 4481/1897)

I'd be interested in a copy of your manuscript.

Rgds,
fougasse1940.
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  #14  
Old 29-09-10, 01:49 PM
ncc ncc is offline
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Default restrikes

you don't need a thesis just go to www.niton.com
buy a alloy analysis gun, point it a your badge it will tell you everything you want to know.
the only slight problem i can see is, that it costs about £20,000.
Bob
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  #15  
Old 30-09-10, 01:53 PM
R.J. Bradshaw R.J. Bradshaw is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8thfoot View Post
RJB

Did you write something in Crown Imperial on the subject some considerable time ago prior to doing your degree ?

Something rings a bell or am I mistaken ?

Regards

P.B.
Good memory that man. it was indeed me who wrote asking for broken genuine, and obvious restrikes and I got a great response. My original intention was to serialise the work in C.I. which had been arranged thus, but as you know, it shut down before I had chance, sadly.
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