Green Jackets Brigade Quandry

[Mike H]

Originally Posted by leigh kitchen

Was the LI one not a green oval boss?

No Leigh,round green. Exactly the same as was worn in the fs.hat/cap.

In the image LI at the top
Bottom row. RGJ,Light Division then the Rifles

[leigh kitchen]

Thanks.

[MBrockway]

Ditto - nice comparison.

[Mike H]

I thought it was the best way to show them.
Ive sent a few emails to various people. We will hopefully get answers to some of the questions we have raised.

[MBrockway]

Originally Posted by Mike H

I thought it was the best way to show them.
Ive sent a few emails to various people. We will hopefully get answers to some of the questions we have raised.

I found a photo of the Massed Bands of the Green Jacket Brigade - i.e. the bands of all three regiments paraded together - and some associated references in the 1959 KRRC Chronicle.


The photo is not detailed enough to see the front cross belt badge, but a few details can be gleaned ...

3 Bugle Majors: all in rifle busbies, two have cross belts, one of whom is definitely the KRRC Bugle Major, the third does not. This Bugle Major is on the right end (looking at the photo) of the front rank, so must be the Bugle Major from the 1st Green Jackets, 43rd & 52nd.

3 other WO's with swords, presumably the Band Masters: all in busbies, two have cross belts, one does not.

The KRRC Chronicle roll mentions a Brigade Bandmaster on the Depot Staff List, as well as the Bandmaster, 1st Battalion, KRRC. No mention of DOM's.

The front rank from RIGHT to left seems to be :

• Bugle Major, 1st Green Jackets, 43rd & 52nd.
• Band Master, 3rd Green Jackets, The Rifle Brigade
• Bugle Major, 2nd Green Jackets, King's Royal Rifle Corps (i/c of the parade)
• Band Master, 1st Green Jackets, 43rd & 52nd
• Band Master, 2nd Green Jackets, King's Royal Rifle Corps
• Bugle Major, 3rd Green Jackets, The Rifle Brigade

24 buglers: Rifles busbies, waist belts, no cross belts. The text says the buglers of the 1st Green Jackets, 43rd & 52nd wore green and white plumes in their busbies.

81 bandsmen: peaked No 1 Dress forage caps with bright cap badge, all apparently similar, so must be the new Green Jacket Brigade cap badge. Some cross belts visible, but impossible to tell if (a) plain bandsman's belt with shoulder buckle and music case (as in the Gurkha photos above); or (b) Rifle regiment cross belt with front badge, no buckle and small rifle back pouch.


The main lesson from this relevant to us here is that the band's ex-OBLI WO's are not wearing the cross belt in 1959.

I shall continue digging.

Mark

[Mike H]

Excellent Mark,do you want me to hire a Hydrema as i think we may have a lot more digging to do ?

[Toby Purcell]

Very interesting Mark, and not that long after the OBLI left the LI Bde and joined the Green Jackets Bde, so all insignia likely to be shiny ‘new’. Interesting about the green and white plumes too, is that after or before the LI bands started wearing the same busby and plume?

[MBrockway]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

Very interesting Mark, and not that long after the OBLI left the LI Bde and joined the Green Jackets Bde, so all insignia likely to be shiny ‘new’. Interesting about the green and white plumes too, is that after or before the LI bands started wearing the same busby and plume?

It was in the 1959 KRRC Chronicle Toby. That year's volume included a section on the Band & Bugles - not one of the standard sections that appeared in every year.

The bandsmen in the photograph are too small to be much use for our purposes to be honest - the photo is dominated by the Rifle Depot buildings!

Nevertheless I might try a scan later in the week. By zooming in and cropping, I might be able to reveal some detail. Just a bit busy today & tomorrow!

I've also been trawling KRRC and RB sources 1958-1966 with Andy looking for info on the uniform changes and impact of the two regiments' move into the Green Jacket Brigade. Some interesting material emerging - inter alia that the rifles regiments actually adopted some elements of the 43rd & 52nd drill (very surprising!) and that there was a proposal to have a cross belt worn by ALL ranks in ceremonial dress. I'll attempt to draw it together in a few days.

Mark

[Mike H]

I posted a copy of the NCOs crossbelt proposal in an earlier post .

[MBrockway]

Originally Posted by MBrockway

I found a photo of the Massed Bands of the Green Jacket Brigade - i.e. the bands of all three regiments paraded together - and some associated references in the 1959 KRRC Chronicle.


The photo is not detailed enough to see the front cross belt badge, but a few details can be gleaned ...

3 Bugle Majors: all in rifle busbies, two have cross belts, one of whom is definitely the KRRC Bugle Major, the third does not. This Bugle Major is on the right end (looking at the photo) of the front rank, so must be the Bugle Major from the 1st Green Jackets, 43rd & 52nd.

3 other WO's with swords, presumably the Band Masters: all in busbies, two have cross belts, one does not.

The KRRC Chronicle roll mentions a Brigade Bandmaster on the Depot Staff List, as well as the Bandmaster, 1st Battalion, KRRC. No mention of DOM's.

The front rank from RIGHT to left seems to be :

• Bugle Major, 1st Green Jackets, 43rd & 52nd.
• Band Master, 3rd Green Jackets, The Rifle Brigade
• Bugle Major, 2nd Green Jackets, King's Royal Rifle Corps (i/c of the parade)
• Band Master, 1st Green Jackets, 43rd & 52nd
• Band Master, 2nd Green Jackets, King's Royal Rifle Corps
• Bugle Major, 3rd Green Jackets, The Rifle Brigade

24 buglers: Rifles busbies, waist belts, no cross belts. The text says the buglers of the 1st Green Jackets, 43rd & 52nd wore green and white plumes in their busbies.

81 bandsmen: peaked No 1 Dress forage caps with bright cap badge, all apparently similar, so must be the new Green Jacket Brigade cap badge. Some cross belts visible, but impossible to tell if (a) plain bandsman's belt with shoulder buckle and music case (as in the Gurkha photos above); or (b) Rifle regiment cross belt with front badge, no buckle and small rifle back pouch.


The main lesson from this relevant to us here is that the band's ex-OBLI WO's are not wearing the cross belt in 1959.

I shall continue digging.

Mark

Here is the section of the photo that shows the bands ....



I've also attached below a reduced filesize version of the full photo complete with the Rifle Depot in the background.

Mark

[MBrockway]

Close-ups of front rank from LEFT to RIGHT (as we look at the parade)...



BM A. McQuaid, 3rd Green Jackets, The Rifle Brigade
Bandmaster E.W. Jeanes, 2nd Green Jackets, The King's Royal Rifle Corps
Bandmaster H.A. Kenney, 1st Green Jackets, 43rd and 52nd



BM R. Silver, 2nd Green Jackets, The King's Royal Rifle Corps
Bandmaster D. Snowden, 3rd Green Jackets, The Rifle Brigade
BM J. Dunwell, 1st Green Jackets, 43rd and 52nd

No cross belts on either of the two OBLI WO's.

The identification of the WO's is mine - the photo is uncaptioned.

If anyone wants a close-up of another part of the Bands & Bugles just ask and I'll post.

Mark

[Mike H]

Dunwell was the guy we had an image of earlier on in the thread,post # 57. He was wearing a crossbelt then.
I wonder if they were told to stop wearing the OBLI belt and wear the GJ Bde one. But in this image they arent ready yet.
It does mention in the doc that KRRC and RB Officers should be allowed to wear their parent regts crossbelt.
As ive mentioned before i have images of Officers circa 1995 wearing a KRRC one. I even found an image that can only be a few years old . The OC of Westminster School CCF. Can make his cap badge out,but his KRRC cross can be clearly seen.
.

[Toby Purcell]

Thank you Mark and Mike for the preceding posts, all very informative with more emerging all the time. It’s strange that little if any of this seems to have been drawn together before and yet without it there is nothing to record the chronological changes in order to establish a coherent understanding of what happened and how end states were reached. It is/was history in the making.

[MBrockway]

I've got some interesting material from Andy covering this same transition period from the RB perspective.

I'll post it later in the week.

[Mike H]

The images that Mark has posted must be later than the one i posted. Im presuming the uniform would be still in transition.
OBLI crossbelt gone but no GJ bde crossbelt yet.
His sleeve insignia appear to have altered too. 2nd image,4 chevrons and a crown ,1st image,4 chevrons,a crown and another badge above which i cant make out but probaly a bugle.