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  #16  
Old 21-06-17, 01:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Kelley View Post
Hello,
In my opinion it really is not something you need to dwell upon, if you take a period of a decade or so from the point the regiment started wearing it's blues, you will encounter a number of differing wings.
These are merely manufacturers variations, a couple of millimetres here and there, it does not matter at all, everyone wore them and I am very sure if you picked a dozen different toms and in particular, officers, all serving at the same point in time, you might well see half a dozen differing wings.
So many little companies made them, Fabb, Marland's, Simpson's and so forth.
I deliberately picked two earlier and very different examples to make that point, but, there were many others and you should have absolutely no issue whatsoever in finding an example.
Regards Frank
Thanks Frank,
You're absolutely right about the variations existing on private purchase wings. I was just stressing the fact that these wings were prescribed by Army regulations to approximately 2" in width, too small to fit the pouch (2" 3/4). Any idea about the market price of an early version of these wings?
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  #17  
Old 21-06-17, 08:13 AM
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The variety of wings is huge as already stated throughout this thread.
Here is an interesting one (to the left of the more standard Far East one) - I believe it is NOT mess dress but in fact a variety worn by Indian Units in side cap. I stand to be corrected given red backing, but I have seen this on a black backing too. For an example in wear see Peter Taylor: Allied Special Forces Insignia 1939-1948 pages 156 and 157.
The example below is just 60mm by 27mm.
I hope this helps - it certainly illustrates the point of variant sizes.
Mike
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  #18  
Old 22-06-17, 02:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike B View Post
The variety of wings is huge as already stated throughout this thread.
Here is an interesting one (to the left of the more standard Far East one) - I believe it is NOT mess dress but in fact a variety worn by Indian Units in side cap. I stand to be corrected given red backing, but I have seen this on a black backing too. For an example in wear see Peter Taylor: Allied Special Forces Insignia 1939-1948 pages 156 and 157.
The example below is just 60mm by 27mm.
I hope this helps - it certainly illustrates the point of variant sizes.
Mike
Thanks Mike.
It is indeed a possibility that this badge could not have been mess dress. You're right about the wartime wings worn by Indian units on soft headdress (ref Oliver Lock p36).

I have attached this sample that was for sale on EBay. It is very small (31mm x 25) and I can't imagine it could have been mounted on a patrol uniform. BTW, I've read that these 'blues' were re-established around 1947. Does it mean the bullion wings for mess dress were likely not worn before?
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  #19  
Old 22-06-17, 06:46 AM
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You should find an example without having to break the bank, everyone wore them, they are very common, so just a few pounds, I would think.


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Originally Posted by tcrown View Post
Thanks Frank,
You're absolutely right about the variations existing on private purchase wings. I was just stressing the fact that these wings were prescribed by Army regulations to approximately 2" in width, too small to fit the pouch (2" 3/4). Any idea about the market price of an early version of these wings?
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  #20  
Old 01-07-17, 07:16 PM
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Thanks to everyone's contribution.
Is it fair to say that two size of bullion wings existed?
- full size for Blues or #1 dress approx. 3" 1/4 wide
- small size for mess dress approx. 2" wide
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  #21  
Old 11-07-17, 10:41 AM
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I think that is quite a difficult question to answer, regarding the blues wing, certainly if you are talking about that initial post war decade, I don't think I have ever seen a three and a quarter inch example and I have seen many down the years, but, that sounds rather too large.
Mess dress is another issue altogether, whilst it may be true to say it had not died a death completely during the war, you must bear in mind the number of people that actually had it to wear in the first place and in particular, the period that you are looking at.
The Parachute Regiment did not have a permanent cadre and was in effect run by simply seconding officers from the various infantry regiments, but, only after they had completed their training and a usually quite considerable period of regimental duty.
If they were not already parachute trained and most were not, the ended up at the hands of what would become P Company, which was simply a smaller, although rather extended version of the wartime Parachute Holding and Training Battalion, those officers who had Mess Dress simply wore that of their own regiment, but, ultimately yes, you do encounter older, really quite small examples, that appear to be Mess Dress wings.


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Originally Posted by tcrown View Post
Thanks to everyone's contribution.
Is it fair to say that two size of bullion wings existed?
- full size for Blues or #1 dress approx. 3" 1/4 wide
- small size for mess dress approx. 2" wide

Last edited by Frank Kelley; 11-07-17 at 12:16 PM.
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  #22  
Old 15-07-17, 05:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Kelley View Post
I think that is quite a difficult question to answer, regarding the blues wing, certainly if you are talking about that initial post war decade, I don't think I have ever seen a three and a quarter inch example and I have seen many down the years, but, that sounds rather too large.
Mess dress is another issue altogether, whilst it may be true to say it had not died a death completely during the war, you must bear in mind the number of people that actually had it to wear in the first place and in particular, the period that you are looking at.
The Parachute Regiment did not have a permanent cadre and was in effect run by simply seconding officers from the various infantry regiments, but, only after they had completed their training and a usually quite considerable period of regimental duty.
If they were not already parachute trained and most were not, the ended up at the hands of what would become P Company, which was simply a smaller, although rather extended version of the wartime Parachute Holding and Training Battalion, those officers who had Mess Dress simply wore that of their own regiment, but, ultimately yes, you do encounter older, really quite small examples, that appear to be Mess Dress wings.
Thanks Frank.
These two wings are large (3 1/4). Would you say they are post 50s by the look of their design?
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File Type: jpg LF2.jpg (38.4 KB, 10 views)
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  #23  
Old 15-07-17, 04:35 PM
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Can you post a clear image of there reverse please?
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  #24  
Old 15-07-17, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Kelley View Post
Can you post a clear image of there reverse please?
Here you go.
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File Type: jpg LF2_B.jpg (53.3 KB, 9 views)
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  #25  
Old 15-07-17, 08:37 PM
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Yes, I would agree with that.

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Originally Posted by tcrown View Post
Thanks Frank.
These two wings are large (3 1/4). Would you say they are post 50s by the look of their design?
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  #26  
Old 16-07-17, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Kelley View Post
Yes, I would agree with that.
Thanks Frank.
Any particular details you would recommend to look at for these early bullion wings?
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  #27  
Old 04-03-18, 10:50 PM
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Thanks to Ken Joyce, I was able to reunite the wings to the pouch.
The pouch was originally part of a souvenir belt that was presented on this forum years ago http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...highlight=belt
The wings are apparently an early type with the basket embroidered with similar red thread used for the 3rd para inscription, I would imagine by the first owner for decoration purposes.

End of this story. Thanks to everyone's contribution.
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  #28  
Old 06-03-18, 07:08 AM
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A very good result, although, it does make one wonder just how and why they were ever separated in the first place, what is the measurement of these wings?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tcrown View Post
Thanks to Ken Joyce, I was able to reunite the wings to the pouch.
The pouch was originally part of a souvenir belt that was presented on this forum years ago http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...highlight=belt
The wings are apparently an early type with the basket embroidered with similar red thread used for the 3rd para inscription, I would imagine by the first owner for decoration purposes.

End of this story. Thanks to everyone's contribution.
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  #29  
Old 07-03-18, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Kelley View Post
A very good result, although, it does make one wonder just how and why they were ever separated in the first place, what is the measurement of these wings?
Frank,
The measurements (inner badge) are consistent with the standard wings 74mm by 28mm. I can't explained why the outline of the badge was smaller (69mm by 28mm). Maybe the badge was glued to the pouch which could explained the smaller size. Obviously, the material around the edge of the badge was folded back.
Ken told me he decided to remove the badges from the belt and sold most of them but kept the Canadian ones and these wings.
I myself subsequently acquired the pouch, the Guards shoulder titles and the Airborne title a couple of years ago. I finally purchased the wings from Ken recently.
I can post photos of the wings if interested.
Cheers
Pierre
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