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  #31  
Old 11-11-10, 01:01 PM
SteveE SteveE is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil Pearce View Post
Great post Steve!
From the image, I can't see the badge as clearly as I'd like, but this looks to be as if there is no "loop" bearing the title "Independent Overseas Command". As you have the original, can you clarify this?
I don't have the image per se, it was cropped from a piece of newsreel footage that actually shows the badge better. It doesn't appear to have the "IOC loop".

This link will take you to the newsreel footage, detail is at about 19 seconds in.... http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=5155

Regards

Steve
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  #32  
Old 11-11-10, 05:10 PM
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Tinto Tinto is offline
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Hi Chaps,
I regret I cannot add to the careful research and discussion presented thus far by Brent and others, except to post my pictures. Hopefully more photographs of Frontiersmen will come to light.
Cheers, Tinto
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Frontiersmen1.jpg (37.4 KB, 59 views)
File Type: jpg Frontiersmen1 rev.jpg (28.9 KB, 51 views)
File Type: jpg Frontiersmen2.jpg (21.0 KB, 35 views)
File Type: jpg Frontiersmen3.jpg (40.1 KB, 31 views)
File Type: jpg Frontiersmen3 rev.jpg (31.0 KB, 25 views)
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  #33  
Old 11-11-10, 05:25 PM
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LONGSHANKS LONGSHANKS is offline
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I've read that the enameled one's were for the association members post war. Anyone confirm this as I was just about to but one thought better of it.

Simon.
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  #34  
Old 11-11-10, 06:44 PM
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Tinto Tinto is offline
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Hi All,
I looked back into my records. Here is a response to my query re these two badges:

"Hi,
My opinion is that the badge on the left is probably the badge of the short-lived Independent Overseas Legion of Frontiersmen aka Imperial Overseas Legion of Frontiersmen which broke away c1927 and was brought back into the fold in 1934. As to the brighter badge on the right, it is believed, but not proved, that some years later an entrepreneur had quite a number of these struck as reproductions. I have seen these offered for sale with various claims regarding provenance as high as £UK125, which puts an extraordinary value on a non-military badge.
It has often been believed that this was the officers badge of the 25th (Service) Battalion Royal Fusiliers (Frontiersmen) who served in East Africa 1915-1917, but in fact the officers badge bore little or no difference to the o.r.s due to the speed with which the unit was raised and some badges were also struck locally in East Africa. I have to admit that in early issues of my own "One Hundred Years of the Legion of Frontiersmen" (Phillimore 2004), due to an editorial error which I missed, the badge is incorrectly described as a 25th RF officers badge.
If you care to look at the history website www.frontiersmenhistorian.info from early December on the Topic page for Dec/Jan you will find more on the IOC breakaway under the heading of "The Frontiersman who wrote to the King".
My latest book "Outrider of Empire" (University of Alberta Press 2008) has more on the subject.

Geoff Pocock (UK Historian and archivist)"

Cheers, Tinto
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  #35  
Old 11-11-10, 07:41 PM
ncc ncc is offline
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Default garage badge

just out of interest are there any contemporary photos show the 'garage badge' being worn.
Bob
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  #36  
Old 11-11-10, 09:33 PM
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dragonz18 dragonz18 is offline
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Hi Guys,
great to see this thread taking off again,with some new info,etc.
It seems that others have experienced the same difficulties I had with LOF contact, info & research ?
Still, we move on & fill in the gaps !

The "patterns" quoted ,were origionally suggested for ease of reference, nothing 'official' intended here.

More,later.

Cheers !
Steve (NZ)
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  #37  
Old 11-11-10, 10:04 PM
SteveE SteveE is offline
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Bob

Images of the "2nd & 3rd Patterns" being worn by 25th RF men exist but I've not come across any photo showing the "1st Pattern" garage version. I live in hope .

My terminology of 2nd & 3rd patterns is again referenced to the images in Westlake's book although only the 2nd pattern has a K&K reference (1143). Like Steve (NZ) I find it easier to reference them in this manner.

Regards

Steve
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  #38  
Old 12-11-10, 03:04 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Tinto, it has been far to long since we last collaborated on a badge mystery.

I didn’t realise until your post that it was Geoff Pocock (No relation to Roger Pocock) you made your inquiry with. I suspect that Geoff who is one of the four main LOF historians, passed your request on to Bruce Fuller who was probably the one who supplied the information, I only say this because it was Bruce who forwarded your photos to me.

From what I am hearing it seems the New Zealand badge book writers are not alone in getting it wrong when it comes to Frontiersmen badges.

Tinto, you might be interested to know I have put together a blog on the history of NZVC badges and posted it on the NZMR web site, when I get around to finishing it I will post some extracts on this forum.

Cheers
Brent
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  #39  
Old 12-11-10, 03:47 AM
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Tinto Tinto is offline
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Hi Brent,
Good to hear from you. As far as I know, Geoff Pocock made that reply (as in my previous post) before he sent copies of my query and pictures to Dean Bruckshaw and Bruce Fuller. I did correspond briefly with Bruce after that, mainly about the small lapel badges.

I look forward to seeing what you have been up to on your blog.

Best wishes,

Tinto
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  #40  
Old 13-11-10, 04:50 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonz18 View Post
Hi Guys,
great to see this thread taking off again,with some new info,etc.
It seems that others have experienced the same difficulties I had with LOF contact, info & research ?
Still, we move on & fill in the gaps !

The "patterns" quoted ,were origionally suggested for ease of reference, nothing 'official' intended here.

More,later.

Cheers !
Steve (NZ)
Steve, the Legion of Frontiersmen is a vast subject and appears to have a number of researchers and historians, each with their own specialist subjects. The difficulty is finding a LOF researcher/historian who shares our passion for badges.

I have communicated with four NZ based LOF researchers/historians, when I asked the badge question, three of them could supply me with nothing that I didn’t already know, the fourth however has provided me with a wealth of information to help me in my research and understanding of the LOF.

But in saying that all four were very generous in supplying pre 1953 photographs showing NZ Frontiersmen in uniform. From these photographs alone I now have a very good record of the variates of badges that were worn by the NZ LOF.

Tinto’s reply from Geoff Pocock and his comments in his 3rd post is evidence that there are LOF researchers/historians that share our passion for badges and are only to willing to provide an answer when questioned. (And photos when asked for)

Heres a photo I found on the net, I couldn’t understand the lingo, but definitely looks like a “regulation” 25th Battalion badge to me.
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  #41  
Old 13-11-10, 01:07 PM
ncc ncc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveE View Post
Bob

Images of the "2nd & 3rd Patterns" being worn by 25th RF men exist but I've not come across any photo showing the "1st Pattern" garage version. I live in hope .

My terminology of 2nd & 3rd patterns is again referenced to the images in Westlake's book although only the 2nd pattern has a K&K reference (1143). Like Steve (NZ) I find it easier to reference them in this manner.

Regards

Steve
is there any contemporary written evidence that this badge existed,you would have had to go along way to find a garage in 1914 if at all and i doubt they would have had an electrical engraving machine to put the '25' on.(thats what it looks like from the pics shown)
if the anecdote was local blacksmiths shop or farriers it would be more believeable.
if evidence can be found it might shed light on the tf badges with the scroll blanked out by the same machine.
Bob
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  #42  
Old 13-11-10, 07:55 PM
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Alan O Alan O is offline
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What is unusual about the homemade badge is that it was supposedly a modified Gren Gds badge. However it is not made up of the sealed pattern Gren Gds badge with lugs and 17 flame tips but the rare slidered 14 flame tips version.
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  #43  
Old 13-11-10, 09:43 PM
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Keith Blakeman Keith Blakeman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ncc View Post
is there any contemporary written evidence that this badge existed,you would have had to go along way to find a garage in 1914 if at all and i doubt they would have had an electrical engraving machine to put the '25' on.(thats what it looks like from the pics shown)
if the anecdote was local blacksmiths shop or farriers it would be more believeable.
if evidence can be found it might shed light on the tf badges with the scroll blanked out by the same machine.
Bob
I think you make a very good point regarding the engraving, is there any evidence as to where the 25th badges were supposedly modified though? Of the TA's, the 10th Middlesex with the zig zag over the scroll is one which comes to mind, another is the 7th London collars (see Orasot's album) both of which were probably carried out in London or B'Ham or the regimetal armourers who would have been more than capable if the equipment was available.
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  #44  
Old 13-11-10, 09:48 PM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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IMO the design of the badge that was decided on by the officer’s of the 25th Battalion (City of London Regiment) Royal Fusiliers, and submitted to the King for approval as the Battalions regulation badge, was most likely copied from the pattern of badge that was worn by the Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regiment).

Brent
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  #45  
Old 13-11-10, 11:03 PM
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Keith Blakeman Keith Blakeman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atillathenunns View Post
IMO the design of the badge that was decided on by the officer’s of the 25th Battalion (City of London Regiment) Royal Fusiliers, and submitted to the King for approval as the Battalions regulation badge, was most likely copied from the pattern of badge that was worn by the Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regiment).

Brent
It's nothing like the Royal Fusilers badge though, even taking the Order of the Garter and central rose off the RF badge the flames are completely different. Logically a scroll ought to have been attached to a regular RF badge of which there were a plenty but as Alan as said an obscure Grenadier Guards badge was chosen to adapt.
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