UV light

[David Moore]

I recently purchased a UV light to check my cloth insignia, does anyone know how accurate this method is? All of my badges which come from known sources passed e.g. from elderly relatives. I had two surprises though, a German badge and a pair of British army pilots wings (King's crown) failed (white bits glowed) both badges had been authenticated by two experienced collectors, can anyone help?

PS I am aware that both German and Airborne insignia are highly reproduced.

Best wishes Dave Moore.

[fougasse1940]

No expert at this at all, but it seems modern washing powder makes original badges which have been washed light up as well.
I'm sure more knowledgeable members will chime in soon.

Rgds,
Thomas.

[hagwalther]

Hi David,

This is an essential test for German insignia and boxes used to contain awards such as those used with Iron Crosses, Blockade Runners etc. also ribbons used with some crosses and awards.

While NOT 100% lets say that I would never purchase a WWII era item that glowed brightly under UV light.

It seems that the process of bleaching before colour dying cloth items changed after WWII leaving the cloth very reflective to UV light. As fougasse1940 says though, such a reaction may be caused by the item being cleaned in modern washing powders but at least to have some grounds for believing that the item is authentic then the item should not glow.

Beware though - cloth items have been reproduced using materials made pre WWII so the test is not absolute in any way but a good indicator nevertheless.

Regards

Chris

[lettman]

I profess no expertise in the field of how materials show up under UV light, but weren't the Germans pioneers in the use of artificial material in the manufacture of insignia? Would this affect any UV checks?

[41st]

Originally Posted by fougasse1940

No expert at this at all, but it seems modern washing powder makes original badges which have been washed light up as well.
I'm sure more knowledgeable members will chime in soon.

Rgds,
Thomas.

I can only add that I know that cloth washed in modern biological powders will glow in UV light, which is why along with most other deer stalkers my hunting clothes are washed (on the rare occasions they are washed at all) in non bio powder. I'm told that deer can see the glow from bio powders.
Hwyl,
Kevin

[CftD]

Originally Posted by 41st

I can only add that I know that cloth washed in modern biological powders will glow in UV light, which is why along with most other deer stalkers my hunting clothes are washed (on the rare occasions they are washed at all) in non bio powder. I'm told that deer can see the glow from bio powders.
Hwyl,
Kevin

Absolutely right ! Stalking clothes washed in biological powder or liquid have been proven to show under UV in clothing manufacturers' field tests and many carry this warning. Some waterproofing replenishers also respond to UV. However, frequent re-washing in non-bio removes most if not all previous UV responsive deposits - that could be a test for suspect cloth insignia - a wash or two in non-bio. David

[DavidS]

Originally Posted by David Moore

... All of my badges which come from known sources passed e.g. from elderly relatives. I had two surprises though, a German badge and a pair of British army pilots wings (King's crown) failed (white bits glowed) both badges had been authenticated by two experienced collectors, can anyone help?
Best wishes Dave Moore.

Rather than look for reasons why a glow-in-the-dark cloth badge might -- just might -- be legitimate, I'd be more inclined to accept that there are some really good repros., and that even experienced collectors get fooled or can be wrong.

You could always try a burn test and see if these two fail that as well.

[cossack]

The UV light thing became popular a few years back supposedly to identify older cloth items, particularly white items of course - as mentioned above about washing, I experienced this with a WW2 cossack volunteer armshield which I had popped in a pocket to show someone, promptly forgot about it & washed the trousers it was in. Needless to say it glowed unbelievably after that! Personally I haven't bothered with my UV lamp since as I realise now that if something has been cleaned it will glow anyway.

[johanwiegman]

Folks,

I am not a real expert on UV light, but have investigated a bit. There is plenty of information on the Internet on using
UV in inspecting antiques and old textiles etc.

UV light makes certain white fibers glow. As you will have found out, most other colours in badges do not glow.

The reason why fibers glow is either the fabric itself or the bleaching agent or the dye in which the fibre was coloured. Modern detergents have the same effect, but how many collectors put their rare badges in the washing machine?

The question is when those modern fibers, bleaches and dyes started to appear.

You can be certain modern fibers, such as nylon, were around late in WW2.

Also, in the UK the textile industry was pretty advanced and would have worked with modern materials.

However, in testing British badges I have never seen WW2 period badges or parachute wing glow. Items from the fifties can glow.

My advice would be to experiment a lot and share your results with this community.

Best regards,

Johan

[David Moore]

Thanks to everyone who has replied to my thread, I will post pictures of the two badges concerned at some point. Like all collectors I know that reproductions can creep into a collection, I am philiosophical because out of about fifty cloth badges only these two glowed. I didn't pay much for either badge. The Army flying badge could of been through a wash because the backing cloth or paper is missing. Alternatively I have been told that a lot of reproduction wings were made in India without backing material, so I may well have a pair of these?

Whenever I go out on a buying spree I now take the UV light along with me. I accept that this is NOT fool proof but I now work in a systematic manor; the item should look, smell and feel right, should not glow, not too many rare patches for sale at the same time. I like to know where they came from. I know several people who clear houses, this generally turns up a handful of badges which I am fairly sure of.

Thanks again best wishes Dave Moore

[Lampwick]

Originally Posted by 41st

. I'm told that deer can see the glow from bio powders.
Hwyl,
Kevin

This is akin to my Mother's belief that pigs were the only animal which could see the wind, which leads to their running around madly when it's blowy!

[41st]

Originally Posted by Lampwick

This is akin to my Mother's belief that pigs were the only animal which could see the wind, which leads to their running around madly when it's blowy!

I think you'll find that there has been a fair bit of scientific research into this due to the large amounts of money involved in modern hunting. Unlike Granny's old wives tales, although some of these also hold more than a grain of truth. I also remember hearing that one about pigs form my aunt who was a pig farmer. In her case I think she was just winding up the city boy.
Hwyl

[HamandJam]

If I can add anything, I agree that UV glow of ww2 British SF badges is not a good sign and for me does the alarm bells rinkling.However even if there is no glow, there is no certainty the badge is genuine, there are also enough fakes around that do not glow, there you need need to be vigilant on other signs. One other test is the burning of threads to see if they are synthetic or not. If it is just regular ash it is ok.

Cheers,

JB

[fearnaught]

Hi, the reason the material glows is that in the 50's they discovered colour enhancers which basically reflects UV light so making, as the original adverts used to say, washing brighter than white. The Germans did experiment with synthetic dyes and sometimes the red/pink spectrum dyes will glow. Synthetic material, per se, won't glow but they are normally treated with colour enhancers, so they usually do glow. Hope this helps Mike PS presumably deer see more in the UV spectrum, certainly some insects do.

[Old Smelly]

The UV light can be a good indicator but don't go on that alone. A while back I had a battledress blouse that appeared ok but several people had dismissed it because it glowed under UV, however, on close inspection I could tell that it definately WW2 vintage. Why did it glow? The previous owner was a re-enactor and he had washed it in the machine with modern powder, it lit up light a Christmas tree.
Lee