42nd

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Jeff Mc William

Hi Ron (and all),
The following extract from WO359/1 p373 may be of interest :

"3rd Feby 1865.
For the future the 42nd Foot are to have a Star on the Forage Caps of Sergeants and Other Ranks instead of the '42' discontinued.
Star to be the same pattern as Scots Fusr Guards"

However, there is also another entry dated 14th March 1865 which gives the impression that a star was already being worn ?? Regards Jeff

That's interesting Ron, as the oak statue purports to be 1851 and, if accurate, suggests the star was worn well before the regulation change of 1865. It is often the case that a regulation change merely rubber stamped something that was already happening.

[jf42]

The photographs from 1864 of the 42nd in India (Bareilly and Simla) wearing forage caps with star badges certainly support Toby Purcell's observation re-orders the legitmizing of existing practice. I suspect thought that the date of the statue is somewhat later than 1851, even though the uniform it intends to illustrate is of that date.

There is a photograph of 1855-56, showing the light company of the 42nd in Crimea and on their forage caps the men wear the LI bugle over what might be the number or the old oval sphinx badge.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by jf42

The photographs from 1864 of the 42nd in India (Bareilly and Simla) wearing forage caps with star badges certainly support Toby Purcell's observation re-orders the legitmizing of existing practice. I suspect thought that the date of the statue is somewhat later than 1851, even though the uniform it intends to illustrate is of that date.

There is a photograph of 1855-56, showing the light company of the 42nd in Crimea and on their forage caps the men wear the LI bugle over what might be the number or the old oval sphinx badge.

That chimes completely, with my understanding too, JF. All evidence that I have seen over the years indicated the regiment to be still wearing 42 on bonnets during the Crimean and Indian Mutiny period.

[Jeff Mc William]

Hi Ron (and all),
Have just "dug-up" the second letter referred to. It reads as follows :
WO359/1 p379 "HG 14th March 1865
Sir, Having submitted to the Field Marshall Comg in Chief, to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 9th Instant No 52/42nd Foot/266 proposing to assimulate the pattern of the Star worn on the Forage Cap of the 42nd Foot, to the pattern of the same article worn in the Scots Fusilier Guards. And forwarding a pattern of each for inspection ; I am directed to request that you will be pleased to inform the Secretary of State for War that His Royal Highness approves of the assimilation in question being carried out when the present stock of the 42nd pattern star is expended, or on the return of the Regiment from India ... when it will probably require a complete new supply of Forage Caps and the smaller badge may be then introduced simultaneously. The patterns alluded to above are returned herewith.
I have the honor to be Sir, your obedient servant. Sd T.Troubridge D.A.G.
The Under Secretary of State
War Office
Pall Mall. Approved Sd Geo Ramsay. 17/3/1865"

Slightly confusing, but seems to indicate a separate star worn earlier ?? Would be interested to know what others think. Regards. Jeff

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Jeff Mc William

Hi Ron (and all),
Have just "dug-up" the second letter referred to. It reads as follows :
WO359/1 p379 "HG 14th March 1865
Sir, Having submitted to the Field Marshall Comg in Chief, to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 9th Instant No 52/42nd Foot/266 proposing to assimulate the pattern of the Star worn on the Forage Cap of the 42nd Foot, to the pattern of the same article worn in the Scots Fusilier Guards. And forwarding a pattern of each for inspection ; I am directed to request that you will be pleased to inform the Secretary of State for War that His Royal Highness approves of the assimilation in question being carried out when the present stock of the 42nd pattern star is expended, or on the return of the Regiment from India ... when it will probably require a complete new supply of Forage Caps and the smaller badge may be then introduced simultaneously. The patterns alluded to above are returned herewith.
I have the honor to be Sir, your obedient servant. Sd T.Troubridge D.A.G.
The Under Secretary of State
War Office
Pall Mall. Approved Sd Geo Ramsay. 17/3/1865"

Slightly confusing, but seems to indicate a separate star worn earlier ?? Would be interested to know what others think. Regards. Jeff

I agree, Jeff. It makes clear that in 1865 a regimental pattern star was already in use by the 42nd and that they were to adopt a new, smaller pattern, as used by the SFG once they returned home (Britain) and were issued with a new stock of forage caps. This suggests to me that the the change over from numbers to (first pattern) stars took place around the late 1850s, early 1860s, after the Crimean and Indian Mutiny battles were over.

[rmarsden]

Thanks to all for the information.
Pic of Scots Fusileer Guards Sgt in 1865.
This badge seems to be different to the standard star shape?

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by rmarsden

Thanks to all for the information.
Pic of Scots Fusileer Guards Sgt in 1865.
This badge seems to be different to the standard star shape?

I think it's a fairly early pattern (but not earliest) SFG cap star, Ron. The Foot Guards were the first to wear forage cap badges, as opposed to numbers, in the late 1830s. There is more about this in the last two pages of the thread titled 'Grenade Fired Proper'.http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...t=14757&page=6

The design is based on the Star of the Order of the Thistle and was worn in a very similar configuration by the Royal Regiment (1st Foot) and the Royal Highlanders (42nd Foot) as well as the SFG. The points of the star were formed from strands of rounded studs that gave a less spiky appearance and more of a diamond shape overall.

[jf42]

That photo is confusing me. His tunic buttons up the right way but the medals are on his right breast and, unusually, the cap is tipped to the left.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by jf42

That photo is confusing me. His tunic buttons up the right way but the medals are on his right breast and, unusually, the cap is tipped to the left.

It's a reversed image, JF, including the button overlap.

[jf42]

Well, I thought that, but the buttons still confuse me. The coat should button across right to left, no?- Or have I lost the plot?

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by jf42

Well, I thought that, but the buttons still confuse me. The coat should button across right to left, no?- Or have I lost the plot?

Left to right. Buttons on (own) right side, overlap from left. Always thus.

[jf42]

Yes. 'Other right.'

As you know, I am challenged in the L-Rorientation department. It didn't help that I was sitting in a Tee-shirt while I reflected. Moreover, the Black Watch soldier in the coloured photograph that I posted earlier has cunningly moved his medals across to fool the camera. I note now his cap tips subtly to the (camera) left.

[rmarsden]

42nd St. Andrew bullion badge in silver/gilt on a black background.
2.3 1/16" x 1.7/8" imperial measurement. Coat tail ornament or hat badge? Crimean hat badges I have seen do not have the sunburst behind St. Andrew's head. Am i correct to assume this is pre 1855?

[Jeff Mc William]

Hi Ron & Toby,
Continuing the subject of forage cap badges : This background detail from a contemporary Ackerman print of a group of the 42nd dated March 1854 shows ORs of the regiment wearing a large wm thistle on their Kilmarnock caps ... not numerals !?
I have not seen any reference to this badge anywhere else, but cannot believe this is pure "fantasy" since this series were renowned for their accuracy. Regards Jeff

42F group March 1854 (cu detail).jpg

[rmarsden]

Thanks Jeff I have not seen that picture before, what is also interesting is the shape of the bonnet badge displayed. Possibly my post no 62?
Ron.