Newfoundland Regiment

[High Wood]

I have been to the local car boot sale this morning and I have either been incredibly lucky or I have bought a dud. What do you think? It is presumably a collar badge.

[Kevin Elliott]

Hi there,
I've had two in the past, both original but have sold them on (one to Andy on the forum). I'm no expert though, so won't comment on the authenticity but can tell you that the collars and cap badge are exactly the same size, so it could be either.
Regards,
Kevin.

[High Wood]

Kevin,

thank you for that. I have been doing a bit of googling and mine seems to differ from other Newfoundland badges as there is only one void in the caribou's left antler; having said that the piece of metal that would normally be voided is only held in place by a piece of flashing. On other badges the right antler branch is joined to the central antler as well. However, my badge does seem to have the right dark pickled lustre that other Great War Canadian badges have.

[oc14]

Originally Posted by High Wood

I have been to the local car boot sale this morning and I have either been incredibly lucky or I have bought a dud. What do you think? It is presumably a collar badge.

Well done, a nice original badge, should you decide to sell it i'm sure you would not be short of potential buyers !

PL

[High Wood]

Here is the rest of the morning's haul and I wonder if they were from someones reject box as the are all slightly imperfect.

The Silver War Badge (235272) has been repinned; the ARP badge is missing the catch for the pin and the Blues and Royals has lugs that are no longer circular enough for the split pin to fit through easily. Still, I am not complaining; they were cheap enough.

[oc14]

Originally Posted by High Wood

Here is the rest of the morning's haul and I wonder if they were from someones reject box as the are all slightly imperfect.

The Silver War Badge (235272) has been repinned; the ARP badge is missing the catch for the pin and the Blues and Royals has lugs that are no longer circular enough for the split pin to fit through easily. Still, I am not complaining; they were cheap enough.

In case you didn't know already, the Silver War Badge was awarded to 4371 Pte George Thomas Lines of the Royal Army Medical Corps. He enlisted 30/8/1909 and was discahrged as the result of wounds on 4/9/17. He served overseas in France & Flanders from 15/11/1914. He was entitled to the 1914 Star, British War medal & Victory Medal.

PL

[High Wood]

Thank you for that. I did check it on Ancestry this morning though.

[barriefield-brian]

Im no expert but looks like a good badge to me. Never know what you may find at a sale. Cheers Brian

[NFLDREGT]

Hi

I have been collecting Newfoundland Regiment items for twenty plus years and I can't tell from the picture one way or the other. There are a couple things that I'm not keen about looking at it but without holding it I couldn't be sure. They have been reproduced in recent years and there always seems to be lots of them about so I would be real careful where you buy. Going back years ago they were hard to come by, now there always seems to be one up at auction on E*** and on many dealer lists. With so many about I am surprised that they still go over $100.

Don

[High Wood]

Don,

thank you for the update and all your points are noted. What are the couple of points that you are not happy with?

For me it seemed incongruous to have found such a rare badge amongst a small box of badges at a car boot sale. That said the man was not a badge dealer or collector as he clearly had no idea what he was selling.

Secondly, the presence of the normally voided piece of metal hints at poor quality control during the manufacturing process so it was either discarded as sub standard, which seems odd as it could easily have been rectified, or; if the the manufacturer was producing so many that they weren't properly checked. Again this seems unlikely.

The right antler has clearly broken away and I have gently closed the gap as it appears that it was connected at one time. This is either evidence of poor manufacturing or severe mishandling of the badge at some point in its life.

In it's favour, the badge has the right Canadian pickled finish that other Great War Canadian badges sometimes have and seems to be a good quality stamping, the unremoved void metal accepted.

Again, with the price that I paid for it, there was clearly no intention to deceive on the part of the seller; as he had no idea idea of what he had in his badge box.

That said, I am still undecided as to whether it is a right one or not.

[DavidS]

You find deals where you find them: I got a SWW FSSF collar in mint condition in a lot of other US collars for $3.50 apiece, and a 1st Canadian Armoured Personnel Carrier badge for $25 from a dealer.

Be that as it may, I think you are far too hung up on the whole 'quality control/this/that' thing.

Canadian badges (albeit this one isn't Canadian -- or wasn't at the time) are/were produced in small(er) runs than you are probably used to with UK badges, and die differences and quality can vary considerably. As for Nfld. Regiment badges, there are gilt finish, pickled bronze, blackened, and brass badges. There are also flat-backs, fully die-stamped backs, etc., etc. Bear in mind the regiment was virtually wiped out at the Somme thanks to Kitchener, and all in all, the regiment had over 1500 dead and 2300 wounded by the end of WWI. (Post-Confederation Royal Nfld Regiment collars are the same design, BTW.)

The voided antler space badges are less common, or seem so to me, than the non-voided antler, and I'm guessing they are earlier badges. I hope to God that by 'gently closed the gap' you didn't squeeze the antler together with its partner. The way it was pictured in your first post is the way it was supposed to look.

I agree with NfldRegt that there seem to be more out there than men that ever were in the Royal Nfld Regiment, and some black enameled ones I've seen of late have made me think.

[High Wood]

Thank you for your interesting comments. I don't agree that I am too hung up about anything. I am simply trying to find out if I have an original example of a much copied badge by discussing its good and bad points with fellow collectors; which I thought was the point of this particular section of this forum.

As to your point about the antlers; all the examples that I can see online seem to have the top left edge of the right antler joined or very close to the middle antler. The caribou with the right antler extended to the right seems to be a feature of the later WW2 period Royal Newfoundland Regiment cap badges. But as you have pointed out there seem to be many different varieties of this badge.

One last point, Kitchener was dead before the battle of the Somme having been drowned on H.M.S Hampshire on 5th June 1916; He may have founded the New Armies but it was Douglas Haig who was in command during the battle.

[DavidS]

Try this link for a pretty typical Nfld. Regiment badge/antler arrangement. Your badge appears to be bronze as opposed to brass, and there are some die differences, but that right antler as in your original scan is okay. This badge seems the same as yours, including the original antler positions.

SWW Royal Newfoundland Regiment caps/collars are not like this badge. They are the face-on caribou. Post-confederation (> 1949) RNR collars go back to this style.

Sorry you seem offended by my 'hung up' comment. That was intended as a comment on Canadian vs. UK badge versions and whether things like trim and finish are useful for telling good from bad badges, not a personal invective. Canadian badges are just all over the map with respect to quality and visible variations.

Point taken re Haig & Kitchener, and I smacked myself on the forehead when I realized I'd typed that. I'll do penance now by forcing myself to go through a bucket of really ugly SWW Maisonneuve badges.

[NFLDREGT]

Hi

The two areas that I was questioning are the redish metal showing through the rear near the lug and the courseness of the pebbling on the antlers and ribbon. The reddish metal showing through looks similar to the metal used by a well known rerpo guy from Canada from a few years back.

I just pulled out a few of my variations to check and compare to your picture. Of the six three are brass and one of those has been clearcoated to keep shinny. Of the three coated ones, one is brass with a light brown coating, one has a blackish coating and the other a light pickled coating. All have some variation in the shape and size of antlers. Two of the antlers are attached, three are about 1/16" from touching and definitelywere never attached and the other is about 3/16" apart and doesn't appear to have been moved. The pebbling varied from almost smooth to almost as rough as the one in your picture. As well the ribbon size and shape varies slightly.

As for what was worn as caps and collars it varied. I have pictures of
Cap no collars which is fairly typical of enlisted men.
Cap and same size collars all facing the same way.
Cap and same size collars with collars facing each other.
Cap and slightly smaller collars facing each other.
Cap and half size collars facing each other.

Post WW II Canadian Royal Newfoundland Regiment collars look somewhat similar to WW I but are shaped different on the ribbon and are hard to mistake. for WW I badges. The WW I badges would not have been made past 1918.

Like I said in my earlier post no way to tell for sure either way. Based on the way you picked the badge there would be a good chance it is a period piece just a poor strike which may have been discarded.

For a badge which would have been made in small numbers there sure are a lot of varities.

Don

[High Wood]

Don,

thank you for your input and for sharing your knowledge. I am leaning 60/40 to the badge being a repro albeit a reasonably well made one. I think that the chances of finding a right one without provenance in England are just too great. Having said that, elsewhere on the forum someone has posted one in relic condition that they found in Scotland with a metal detector so you never know.

In all honesty it is not a cap badge that I ever thought that I would own due to its rarity so even if there is some doubt about its authenticity I am still very pleased with it; particularly as it cost me less than a cup of coffee in Starbucks.

Thank you for taking your time to respond to my questions.

Simon