The Leinster Regiment Royal Canadians

[Keith Blakeman]

Isn't the curved coronet a feature of the bronze OSD badge?

[irishhorse]

Hi Andy. Hope this helps.

[2747andy]

Thanks for the image but that slider looks too modern to be an EI badge. Could those marks on the slider be a polished out makers mark (J.R.GAUNT.LONDON)?

Andy

[orasot]

Andy, It'll be interesting to see how this one pans out, as you can see, mine has the curved coronet too, I've also shown my others, including the Gaunt OSD with blades - none of which have the curved coronet. I have to say, the detail on mine is good, slider is good & fixed well too. Jewels are different in the coronet as well though, plenty to consider with this one !! Wilf.

[2747andy]

Wilf,
I prefer your example, the slider is the right shape and length! I though there would be more response to this thread! What does the RC stand for on the ST (Rifle Corps?).

Andy

[orasot]

Andy, It stands for Royal Canadians. Hopefully there will be more response yet !! Cheers, Wilf.

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Gentlemen,
has anyone got a Genuine Leinsters Economy or All GM, 1916 issued badge that I can compare to the one shown below?

I got this from a reliable source this week, it is well made but has had a replacement slider fitted. The feature that I am not sure of is the curved coronet? In all other aspects it is exactly the same as the regular Bi metal badge!

Your coments please

Andy

Hi Andy,

Your badge comes from the same die as mine and Steve's.

As you can see from the photos of my example the slider is quite similar to yours and whilst I, like you, much prefer Steve's badge's slider I'm happy mines genuine. The quality of the rear strike, depth of the strike, metal colour and patina (it's actually much more GM like in appearence than in the photo where it has, unfortunately, caught a lot of flash). Added to that it came from a dealer I trust and also had John Mulcahy's blessing.

Sliders are not a hard fast rule and using it as the sole indicator on whether a badge is good or not is a little premature IMO, remember the date they first appeared is still a topic of debate. Even despite myself being a bit of a self confessed slider fanatic I'm not too worried about it on this badge personally. I can recall there's a certain manufacturer of the 16th London Regiment (Queen's Westminster & Civil Service Rifles) with a KC which has a very long and slender slider akin to the really nice ones found on the large early 1903-10 Rifle Brigade badges, despite the former badge being from a considerably later period!


Here's a pic of another all GM striking in an old thread post #20. http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...egiment&page=2 . It's my uncle's badge and is particularly unusual in that the 'ich dien' scroll ends attach themselves to the horizontal 'The Leinster' scroll.

This particular die wasn't used in a bimetal strikes of the badge and seems to suggest that a new die was produced. I think I'm right in saying that the adjoined scroll ends on that particular badge are similar to the OSD Leinster die, maybe they used the OSD die to produce OR brass badges?

It would be interesting to see if anyone has a similar OSD Leinster to compare the dies.

[2747andy]

Luke,
not sure where you are going with your reply, Post 20 of that thread shows a standard coronet (not curved), although I must admit the badge (Malc's) has a much nicer slider, shame it has been clipped. I have studied the sliders on Genuine 1916 GM badges (see my album which shows examples of all of the know genuine badges). They are 99% of the time, thicker, less smooth tahn more modern sliders, sometimes with a taper but never smooth and uniform (IMO). It could be the case that there are two genuine patterns of Leinster WW1 EI badges?

Andy

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Luke,
not sure where you are going with your reply, Post 20 of that thread shows a standard coronet (not curved), although I must admit the badge (Malc's) has a much nicer slider, shame it has been clipped. I have studied the sliders on Genuine 1916 GM badges (see my album which shows examples of all of the know genuine badges). They are 99% of the time, thicker, less smooth tahn more modern sliders, sometimes with a taper but never smooth and uniform (IMO). It could be the case that there are two genuine patterns of Leinster WW1 EI badges?

Andy

Andy

There are at least 2 genuine patterns of all brass 1916 Leinster cap badges.

And it's not Malc's badge, Malc cut and pasted that (my) post from another Leinster thread, read post #21

Luke

[John Mulcahy]

There does indeed appear to be two different designs of Leinster Rgt economy badges. I have not had a chance to do any primary research on this regiment's economy issues. It would be interesting to see if surviving contracts show more than two manufacturers.

Of the two types (narrow and "regular" coronet) I have noticed the narrow type is regularly faked. It is found with the usual Gaunt marks and also large font Tiptaft. I cannot recall seeing the "regular coronet" economy type faked.

This narrow coronet type is also found on genuine O/R badges with loops and also on some (but not all) OSD items as Keith points out. It appears to me as it this narrow coronet appears and disappears from time to time without any obvious reason in the regiments cap badges.

Andy, the strike on your badge looks good to me as does the patina. Without any of the usual things to indicate an obvious re-strike these aspects of the badge I would personally be inclined to think that it is OK.

John

[KLR]

I think there is one fundamental question we need to ask - and find the answer to !?
How many badges could be produced by one die ? In other words, how long would a die last ?
Upper and lower dies would of course have differing rates of wear. Also, for a two part badge, dies of eg the main part and dies for eg a scroll, may also have differing rates of wear.
These questions have been addressed (and partly answered) by numismatists but in a machine age (ie from the late 19th century) we ought to be able to find some answers.

In short, there must have been lots of dies = lots of slightly differing badges. As an example, the War Office ordered 31,056 Kings Regt cap badges between April 1904 to July 1914, and 59,064 for the first 19 months of the war (August 1914 – April 1916).

With regard to the Leinster all GM 1916 badge, the WO ordered 10,000 of them on 17th April 1916.

Regretably there does not seem to be surviving data on how many more were ordered - or from who - up to 1919 (I would love to be proved wrong !) . It really does seem to be that people get hung up on very very tiny differences that must - in my humble opinion - be nothing more than differing dies / makers. Fakes can surely be seen by quality (though yes, it's getting more difficult !)
J

[2747andy]

John and Julian,
thank you for your always informative replies, I will leave the latest addition to my 1916 All GM Regular Infantry Album (Leinsters) where it is. The search will continue for a non repaired example and any variations.

Best regards

Andy

[LONGSHANKS]

Hi gents. Came across this. I studied the images in the galleries, but the only rear I could find was a lugged one. The only slider rear I saw was one of Andy's all brass I think; so need for sweat holes.
Anyway, what do you think.

[PembrokeYeo]

100% genuine to me!
PY.