glengarry badges 1874/81

[kitchener]

Hi everyone. At the Leeds arms and armour show on Sunday i had a slight disagreement with a dealer. This person argued that the few pre Territorial era glengarrys 1874 to 1881 he had for sale were 100% genuine. When i pointed out that this type of badge only had brass or brass plated lugs never copper like his he asked me to go away.I wonder how many pre Territorial era badges are in the collections of unsuspecting collectors with copper lugs.

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by kitchener

Hi everyone. At the Leeds arms and armour show on Sunday i had a slight disagreement with a dealer. This person argued that the few pre Territorial era glengarrys 1874 to 1881 he had for sale were 100% genuine. When i pointed out that this type of badge only had brass or brass plated lugs never copper like his he asked me to go away.I wonder how many pre Territorial era badges are in the collections of unsuspecting collectors with copper lugs.

I wonder who that was? Did you get his name?

Andy

[Mercian]

Hello Kitchner, as a matter of interest where did you get the info about the brass lugs, in K&K they state copper.

[Jeff Mc William]

Hi kitchener
Sorry to hear about your dilemma, but unfortunately many, (if not most) of the PT glengarry badges being offered nowadays are fakes...as indeed are many HPCs which I see is the topic of another thread.
IMO, the best approach is to examine the item you are interested in and, if you are not 100% happy...walk away and don't confront the dealer...as you have found, they don't like it !
The other way is to only buy from reputable dealers who will refund your money if you are not entirely happy. Fortunately there are still a few of these.
Mercian ; Thank you for pointing out the anomaly in K&K. This puzzles me somewhat, since I have a private letter from the late, great Hugh King himself (dated 27th July 2000) in which he specifically states that these badges should have N-S brass lugs to be "kosher". Also I have done a little research into this myself some time ago and found that W&W invariably say "brass lugs" while Bosleys prevaricate..but seem to favour the expression "brass-plated copper loops" which sounds a bit "fence sitting" to me. I await to hear what others think on this. Regards Jeff

[Keith Blakeman]

Originally Posted by Jeff Mc William

Hi kitchener
Sorry to hear about your dilemma, but unfortunately many, (if not most) of the PT glengarry badges being offered nowadays are fakes...as indeed are many HPCs which I see is the topic of another thread.
IMO, the best approach is to examine the item you are interested in and, if you are not 100% happy...walk away and don't confront the dealer...as you have found, they don't like it !
The other way is to only buy from reputable dealers who will refund your money if you are not entirely happy. Fortunately there are still a few of these.
Mercian ; Thank you for pointing out the anomaly in K&K. This puzzles me somewhat, since I have a private letter from the late, great Hugh King himself (dated 27th July 2000) in which he specifically states that these badges should have N-S brass lugs to be "kosher". Also I have done a little research into this myself some time ago and found that W&W invariably say "brass lugs" while Bosleys prevaricate..but seem to favour the expression "brass-plated copper loops" which sounds a bit "fence sitting" to me. I await to hear what others think on this. Regards Jeff

One thing that's often puzzled me is that while the regulars glengarries supposedly have brass lugs, why are those on volunteer ones copper?

[ncc]

all my real ones have brass lugs (apart from repaired ones)
i think the confusion comes from the 'fox' ones which seem to have copper lugs and of course are now sold as genuine.
if they were reproduced at the start of the 20th century to make money how many real ones are going to turn up now?
Bob

[kitchener]

Originally Posted by Mercian

Hello Kitchner, as a matter of interest where did you get the info about the brass lugs, in K&K they state copper.

Hi. In almost 34 years of collecting military badges i have picked up over the years much good and much bad information about military cap badges. Unfortunately some copy badges have been around so long that they become 'Kosher.' Mainly because some collectors are unable to accept that they have been duped and collectors new to the hobby have been given wrong information. If you are new to collecting and your knowledge is poor find a good and honest militaria dealer (They are out there.) and use his or her knowledge to enhance your own. Also ask questions of the members of this forum we are here to help and give advice we all need help and clarity at times and in some cases will tell you who to steer clear of. But to answer your original question i was duped in the early days and when i got hardup and tried to move the badges on i was brought down to earth with a thump. Thats how i discovered that said badges did not have copper lugs unless they had been replaced. Regards Kitchener.

[JimD]

I would add one more thing to consider, if the metal of the badge doesn't look like it has been exposed to the atmosphere for an extended period of time and therefore had time to oxidise, it may have been made last week!

Cheers
Jim

[ncc]

oxidisation is no clue to being real ,many of the badges that came out of the gaunt archive sale were bright shiny new looking but genuine all the same and many new badges have been oxidised.
the shinier one on the left is the real one.

[JimD]

Originally Posted by ncc

oxidisation is no clue to being real ,many of the badges that came out of the gaunt archive sale were bright shiny new looking but genuine all the same and many new badges have been oxidised.
the shinier one on the left is the real one.

Oxidisation is the absolutely key all metals, even gold and silver oxidase, its the rate thats the key. even if a badge was unissued it was exposed to oxidisation, allbeit at a slower rate.

Thats what collectors need to keep in mind "has this badge been expoised to oxidisation for 100 years"

Cheers
Jim

[ncc]

have a look at this one.
Bob
ps. gold does not tarnish,objects come out of the ground as bright and shiny as they went in 3000 years ago.



http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ad.php?t=12741

[JimD]

Bob

All metals oxidase, its the rate and pattern that are the difference. To say otherwise is going against physics of the natural world.

Cheers
Jim

[Neibelungen]

Gold plating or fire gilding will oxidise indirectly . It's rate depends on the thickness of the gold. Generally, though the surface of a 24K pure gold finish will remain almost untarnished, but unless there is a nickel or white bronze intermediate layer, base metal copper atoms will migrate through into the gold layer over time.
Hence very thick fire gilding (often in the range of 3-15+ microns thickness) will remain almost pristine over hundreds of years, a thinner layer (below 2.5 microns)will darken within a matter of years, especially if low karat or impure grades of gold were used, effectively further reducing the karat grade in time.

For some reason often early grades of electroplating were around 10K which is especially prone to degredation, possible because it was high in copper content or used a gold chloride base solution.

Pure gold itself (24K) is to all intent untarnishable, but once it reduces below 18K it will, and constant cleaning will remove significant amounts of the brighter surface levels exposing lower K areas in time. 24K for the most part is far too soft for jewellery, with modern plating being about 23.9K with iron, nickel or cobalt trace elements added for hard wearing surfaces.

A lot of modern brass stampings use a dichromate surface treatment to prevent tarnishing (similar in principle to blueing steel) to prevent it's appearance, with the treatment being a yellow tarnish that doesn't give rise to any apparent darkening since it's already tarnished by the process.

Originally Posted by Jeff Mc William

Hi kitchener
Sorry to hear about your dilemma, but unfortunately many, (if not most) of the PT glengarry badges being offered nowadays are fakes...as indeed are many HPCs which I see is the topic of another thread.
IMO, the best approach is to examine the item you are interested in and, if you are not 100% happy...walk away and don't confront the dealer...as you have found, they don't like it !
The other way is to only buy from reputable dealers who will refund your money if you are not entirely happy. Fortunately there are still a few of these.
Mercian ; Thank you for pointing out the anomaly in K&K. This puzzles me somewhat, since I have a private letter from the late, great Hugh King himself (dated 27th July 2000) in which he specifically states that these badges should have N-S brass lugs to be "kosher". Also I have done a little research into this myself some time ago and found that W&W invariably say "brass lugs" while Bosleys prevaricate..but seem to favour the expression "brass-plated copper loops" which sounds a bit "fence sitting" to me. I await to hear what others think on this. Regards Jeff

Hi Jeff, are you saying (as in Hugh King's letter) that the only genuine glengarry badges have N - S lugs? I dont believe this to be strictly correct, I believe that a number of Regiments have the lugs E - W? By the way I do agree about the brass lugs.

[Jeff Mc William]

Originally Posted by HAMMO2440

Hi Jeff, are you saying (as in Hugh King's letter) that the only genuine glengarry badges have N - S lugs? I dont believe this to be strictly correct, I believe that a number of Regiments have the lugs E - W? By the way I do agree about the brass lugs.

Hi Hammo
Sorry, that was a bit of a "sweeping" statement, tho' I do believe that all the PT crowned garter patterns should be N-S lugged. But that is just my opinion.(tho' I think that is what Hugh King meant as well)
Keith.
I have no answer for your query except to say that most (if not all) the Volunteer glengarry badges I have seen have been post 1881 and I guess this was about the time the lugs were changed to copper.
It is a mystery tho' why these invariably had attached crowns, while the regulars (invariably but not always) used a separate QVC and backplate.
Incidently, I find this parallel discussion on oxidisation very interesting.
Regards to all Jeff
PS: If you would like to see the letter I shall post it on this thread later