Machine Gun Corps- Pipe Majors?

[aboode]

In the "Pipers' Badges" section on this site there is a photograph of a plaid brooch of the Machine Gun Corps. Does that mean that they had kilted Scottish units having Pipes & Drums?
Does anyone have any information about the Bands and their Pipe Majors?
Aad

[Hussar100]

Originally Posted by aboode

In the "Pipers' Badges" section on this site there is a photograph of a plaid brooch of the Machine Gun Corps. Does that mean that they had kilted Scottish units having Pipes & Drums?
Does anyone have any information about the Bands and their Pipe Majors?
Aad

I've done a little rummaging for you but can find no real meat on the subject, just a few scant references. So I'm going to apply logic and suggest this to you:

wherever Scots or Irishmen are gathered together in numbers the bagpipes will appear. It also stands to reason that pipers and drummers will have transferred in from Scots and Irish units. It makes sense that commanding officers thought it a good idea to allow the establishment of pipers and/or pipes and drums for morale purposes.

Were they kilted and decked out in Scottish or Irish apparel? I can find nothing to suggest they were but the absence of proof on the internet isn't proof this didn't happen. If command went to the trouble to produce a piper's plaid badge then it does suggest there was something.

Without primary or secondary sources that's the best I can do for you at the moment but there's enough there to warrant a deeper search at IWM if you feel up to it.

[oc14]

I may be wrong and i'm sure Gordon (1st Tankie) may well know more. It is my understanding that the MGC plaid brooch is fairly modern and was in fact worn by members of one of RTR Regiments (I know not which one) who had a pipe band and was worn as a historical commemorative item.

PL

[Alan O]

4th RTR were the Scottish one. They amalgamated in 1992.

[1stTankie]

Hi all

PL and Alan are quite right. I was serving as a Squadron Leader in 4RTR in Bergen Hohne in the early '70s when, as the then junior regiment of the RAC, we were vulnerable to being disbanded and decided we should strengthen our ties with Scotland even more. At that time we were the Scottish RTR; that was our recruiting area, and we had more jocks than the RSDG, They were still full of Welshmen following amalgamation with the Carabiniers.

Pipes and Drums were called for and we set to. First we needed a tartan and this came courtesy of Elizabeth Rose, head of Clan Rose. Its a beautiful tartan, Hunting Rose of Kilravock (pronounced Kilrouke). Next, following discussions between or CO and that of RSDG, we persuaded Sgt Elder, at that time an instructor at the School of Piping, Edinburgh Castle, to join us. I then devised a complete uniform, most of which came from official sources
(Cost saving, a strong Scottish trait) and Pipey Elder started a very successful strategy of "recruiting" former pupils. It wasn't long before the band was up and piping.
My one big mistake was to put the drummers into kilts as well as the pipers. This is a privilege reserved to Highland regiments and I should have known better. The consequential correspondence between the regiment and GOC Scotland was monumental!! But we persevered and eventually received an invitation to join the Massed Pipes and Drums at the Edinburgh Tattoo.
We have never looked back. Look at this year's Tattoo and our Pipes and Drums, now with 1RTR and with a Drum Major wearing a red hackle instead of the 4RTR Oxford Blue one, have never looked better.
The Plaid brooch with the MGC badge was proposed for the Pipe Sergeant and, as has been stated, was commemorative.

I hope this helps

Best wishes

Gordon

[NEMO]

Originally Posted by 1stTankie

Hi all

PL and Alan are quite right. I was serving as a Squadron Leader in 4RTR in Bergen Hohne in the early '70s when, as the then junior regiment of the RAC, we were vulnerable to being disbanded and decided we should strengthen our ties with Scotland even more. At that time we were the Scottish RTR; that was our recruiting area, and we had more jocks than the RSDG, They were still full of Welshmen following amalgamation with the Carabiniers.

Pipes and Drums were called for and we set to. First we needed a tartan and this came courtesy of Elizabeth Rose, head of Clan Rose. Its a beautiful tartan, Hunting Rose of Kilravock (pronounced Kilrouke). Next, following discussions between or CO and that of RSDG, we persuaded Sgt Elder, at that time an instructor at the School of Piping, Edinburgh Castle, to join us. I then devised a complete uniform, most of which came from official sources
(Cost saving, a strong Scottish trait) and Pipey Elder started a very successful strategy of "recruiting" former pupils. It wasn't long before the band was up and piping.
My one big mistake was to put the drummers into kilts as well as the pipers. This is a privilege reserved to Highland regiments and I should have known better. The consequential correspondence between the regiment and GOC Scotland was monumental!! But we persevered and eventually received an invitation to join the Massed Pipes and Drums at the Edinburgh Tattoo.
We have never looked back. Look at this year's Tattoo and our Pipes and Drums, now with 1RTR and with a Drum Major wearing a red hackle instead of the 4RTR Oxford Blue one, have never looked better.
The Plaid brooch with the MGC badge was proposed for the Pipe Sergeant and, as has been stated, was commemorative.

I hope this helps

Best wishes

Gordon

This is why this forum is so bloody great -when members have superb first hand information like this, many thanks for sharing

[aboode]

Thank you all, especially Gordon, for your response.
I thought that the plaid brooch was of the Machine Gun Corps that existed during WW1 (till 1922). I do have the names of the Pipe Majors of 4 RTR (1973-1993) and 1 RTR (1993-present).
Aad

[Hussar100]

Originally Posted by 1stTankie

Hi all

PL and Alan are quite right. I was serving as a Squadron Leader in 4RTR in Bergen Hohne in the early '70s when, as the then junior regiment of the RAC, we were vulnerable to being disbanded and decided we should strengthen our ties with Scotland even more. At that time we were the Scottish RTR; that was our recruiting area, and we had more jocks than the RSDG, They were still full of Welshmen following amalgamation with the Carabiniers.

Pipes and Drums were called for and we set to. First we needed a tartan and this came courtesy of Elizabeth Rose, head of Clan Rose. Its a beautiful tartan, Hunting Rose of Kilravock (pronounced Kilrouke). Next, following discussions between or CO and that of RSDG, we persuaded Sgt Elder, at that time an instructor at the School of Piping, Edinburgh Castle, to join us. I then devised a complete uniform, most of which came from official sources
(Cost saving, a strong Scottish trait) and Pipey Elder started a very successful strategy of "recruiting" former pupils. It wasn't long before the band was up and piping.
My one big mistake was to put the drummers into kilts as well as the pipers. This is a privilege reserved to Highland regiments and I should have known better. The consequential correspondence between the regiment and GOC Scotland was monumental!! But we persevered and eventually received an invitation to join the Massed Pipes and Drums at the Edinburgh Tattoo.
We have never looked back. Look at this year's Tattoo and our Pipes and Drums, now with 1RTR and with a Drum Major wearing a red hackle instead of the 4RTR Oxford Blue one, have never looked better.
The Plaid brooch with the MGC badge was proposed for the Pipe Sergeant and, as has been stated, was commemorative.

I hope this helps

Best wishes

Gordon

I remember your pipes and drums very well from Muenster. In fact you left one behind when you moved to UKLF in 82 - Big Jim, your bass drummer, known fondly to the locals as "Boom-boom". He was serving behind the bar at the Gremmendorfer Hof when we took over from you (QRIH). I think he was romantically linked to the owner.

You'll probably know Lt Col Jim McLucas MBE who formed our pipes and drums? I've been trying to persuade him to join this site to get the benefit his amazing knowledge.

Originally Posted by aboode

Thank you all, especially Gordon, for your response.
I thought that the plaid brooch was of the Machine Gun Corps that existed during WW1 (till 1922). I do have the names of the Pipe Majors of 4 RTR (1973-1993) and 1 RTR (1993-present).
Aad

You're correct in your thinking. I've been doing some searching to try and find references to MGC pipers and so far have failed. I suggested that further research could be useful at the IWM.

There is no link between the 4RTR p&d and the WW1 MGC pipers, other than the line of succession between the Heavy Regiment MGC and today's RAC. 4 RTR were in fact an amalgamation of 4 & 7 RTR from the Sandys Reforms.

FYI however: 4RTR p&d live on in 1RTR today. 4RTR are commemorated as D Sqn, 1RTR.

[Staffsyeoman]

Friends, the elephant in the room is that the MGC did not have any pipe bands. It had precious few bands of any description. I have two of these badges, one the surround of the crossed MGs is chromed; the other it is 'bare metal'.

[Hussar100]

Originally Posted by Staffsyeoman

Friends, the elephant in the room is that the MGC did not have any pipe bands. It had precious few bands of any description. I have two of these badges, one the surround of the crossed MGs is chromed; the other it is 'bare metal'.

If the badges were created however they were created for a reason, and for that I refer you to my post #2.

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by 1stTankie

Hi all

PL and Alan are quite right. I was serving as a Squadron Leader in 4RTR in Bergen Hohne in the early '70s when, as the then junior regiment of the RAC, we were vulnerable to being disbanded and decided we should strengthen our ties with Scotland even more. At that time we were the Scottish RTR; that was our recruiting area, and we had more jocks than the RSDG, They were still full of Welshmen following amalgamation with the Carabiniers.

Pipes and Drums were called for and we set to. First we needed a tartan and this came courtesy of Elizabeth Rose, head of Clan Rose. Its a beautiful tartan, Hunting Rose of Kilravock (pronounced Kilrouke). Next, following discussions between or CO and that of RSDG, we persuaded Sgt Elder, at that time an instructor at the School of Piping, Edinburgh Castle, to join us. I then devised a complete uniform, most of which came from official sources
(Cost saving, a strong Scottish trait) and Pipey Elder started a very successful strategy of "recruiting" former pupils. It wasn't long before the band was up and piping.
My one big mistake was to put the drummers into kilts as well as the pipers. This is a privilege reserved to Highland regiments and I should have known better. The consequential correspondence between the regiment and GOC Scotland was monumental!! But we persevered and eventually received an invitation to join the Massed Pipes and Drums at the Edinburgh Tattoo.
We have never looked back. Look at this year's Tattoo and our Pipes and Drums, now with 1RTR and with a Drum Major wearing a red hackle instead of the 4RTR Oxford Blue one, have never looked better.
The Plaid brooch with the MGC badge was proposed for the Pipe Sergeant and, as has been stated, was commemorative.

I hope this helps

Best wishes

Gordon

Gordon,
can you please confirm that this rather rough cast alloy badge is a pipers cap badge? If so I can move it out of my "? Box ?".

Best regards

Andy

[1stTankie]

Hi Hussar

Many thanks for your post.
I suspect it was not unusual to find our Pipes and Drums in a bar, piping especially is very thirsty work but its nice to know that "Boom-boom" found the time and strength for romance as well!

Best wishes

Gordon

[1stTankie]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Gordon,
can you please confirm that this rather rough cast alloy badge is a pipers cap badge? If so I can move it out of my "? Box ?".

Best regards

Andy

Hi Alan

Not one I've seen before I'm afraid. Here are those that I have found so far starting on the left with the initial issue. Pipey Elder was determined to have the biggest badge in the army at that time. Whether he succeeded or not I leave to others.

Yours looks a little rough even by the standards of our first and second issues. The third one was good quality but sadly out of shape. After that things improved out of all recognition and today's badge is fine but I have yet to get my sticky fingers on one.

I also show the initial issue of the plaid brooch under discussion, very much a "modern" one and certainly not in service with the Heavy Section or Branch of the MGC.


Best wishes

Gordon

[badjez]

Just for information, the rank of Drum-major didn't exist during the life of the MGC. It was introduced on 31.07.28. by Army Order 139. Prior to that the rank was Serjeant drummer. The same applied to Pipe-major, bugle-major etc.

Stephen.

[Staffsyeoman]

Originally Posted by Hussar100

If the badges were created however they were created for a reason, and for that I refer you to my post #2.

I'm not disagreeing with you. They were created for the RTR. I wouldn't have bought them if they were fantasy items; they perpetuated the cap badge. I was just trying to stop anyone running away with the idea of MGC pipe bands.