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#16
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I would agree that military sporrans should have badges on the cantle; but the absence of a badge does not exclude the possibility that Alexander Morrison was a soldier and not a civilian. It might only signify that he didn't have a badge on his cantle. Perhaps they should have been worn with badges but as photographs show, people wore what they wore and didn't or couldn't wear what they hadn't (yet) been issued with.
Below are three examples from my photographic collection of sporran's being worn without regimental badges. Two of the soldiers were members of the 1/5th Seaforth Highlanders and the third was in the Argyle And Sutherland Highlanders. Both of the Seaforth Highlanders were killed in action so there is no doubt that they were soldiers. I also think that Alexander Morrison was a Gordon Highlander or possibly a Cameron Highlander. If he was a non-territorial Seaforth I would have expected the yellow lines in the tartan to show up as large white squares in B&W photographs. If he was 5th Btn Seaforth Highlander he admittedly wouldn't have the yellow lines. The absence of a cap badge may not be particularly significant either as I can produce several pictures of non highland soldiers wearing caps without badges. Presumably they had their photographs taken before the badges were issued. Last edited by High Wood; 15-11-13 at 03:32 PM. Reason: Spelling. |
#17
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Just to confuse matters ( and to explain my earlier post ) Pipers of the Camerons have in the past worn sporrans with white hair and black tassles.
P.B.
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Interested in all aspects of militaria/military history but especially insignia and history of non regular units with a Liverpool connection Members welcome in my private Facebook group “The Kings Liverpool Regiment ( 1685-1958 )” |
#18
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Now I don't feel quite so dim!!
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#19
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Hugh,
I agree about the badges and what you said but we are talking about pipers here and they seem to have always had their own stock of uniform items as they were sometimes different. My regiment is the Camerons and our P&D have their kit separate from the Regt kit. I am trying to pin this photo down to help out the guy but it is proving difficult. As the Sgt in the photo is from the area of, I think, around Stirling (A & SH) none of these Regts seem to fit. I know that people joined Regts far from where they lived this Sgt worked in the area and dates don't seem to match up him being a regular unless he was promoted rather quick. He was born in 1878 and the pic seems to be about 1900-1910. He looks to be 25 to 30 in the pic. He is listed as an electrical engineer in 1904 so I don't think he was a regular soldier or it would have stated that. All of this dosnt make sense as to what he looks to be in the picture. We have to go by all the facts and then try and pin it down. If he was a Territorial then neither the Camerons, Gordons or Seaforths are close to where he seems to be living which was Bannockburn. The coy in Bannockburn was 4th VB A&SH. Unfortunatly no good pictures or info in Griersons book. Colin |
#20
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Quote:
I just would like to point out that the sporran you've shown appears to be Liverpool Scottish, not Cameron Highlanders, is that correct? Cheers, Alex |
#21
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Sporran photos
Hi High Wood
You are correct with your photos, but rank-and-file troops were not usually issued with sporran badges, especially during WWI, so I don't think your argument is correct. Military Pipe bands, however, were normally badged on sporran and baldrick, and if the chap was a sergeant-piper, it is highly unlikely that he'd still be waiting for the issue of badges. It's strange that he appears to be in a military camp, but unless it's one of the volunteer battalions or TA, I still have my doubts whether this is military. Cheers, Alex Last edited by Alex Rice; 16-11-13 at 03:28 PM. |
#22
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I agree with Alex. There are just too many things about this that don't add up to him being military. I will not say he isn't but the dates of his life and style of uniform do not go together. If you can find out some more information about him then it could help but I will put him down as "true Scotsman" who learned Gaelic and played pipes in a civilian band.
I hope you can find more information about him. Colin |
#23
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Alex,
Yes, other than the badge the sporran was a Camerons pattern. Peter
__________________
Interested in all aspects of militaria/military history but especially insignia and history of non regular units with a Liverpool connection Members welcome in my private Facebook group “The Kings Liverpool Regiment ( 1685-1958 )” |
#24
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What also emerges is the the number of non-regulation pattern sporrans worn. Take for example this chap from the Seaforth Highlanders who seems to have a dead sheep in use as a sporran. Whilst officers of the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders seem to have decimated the badger poputation in order to use their heads as sporran decorations. Last edited by High Wood; 16-11-13 at 07:03 PM. Reason: Spelling |
#25
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He's certainly not A&SH. They wear six tassels on the sporran, known colloquially as "the swinging six".
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Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam - I have a catapult. Give me all your money, or I will fling an enormous rock at your head. |
#26
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Try and keep up; he is a Seaforth. I haven't posted the photographs of the Argylls wearing the mutilated badgers yet.
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#27
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As this is developing into a ( polite as always ) discussion on sporrans I thought I would post this picture of a soldier wearing the Liverpool Scottish other ranks sporran on which is not the usual badge but the badge normally worn on the glengarry and by officers and NCO`s on the sporran.
P.B.
__________________
Interested in all aspects of militaria/military history but especially insignia and history of non regular units with a Liverpool connection Members welcome in my private Facebook group “The Kings Liverpool Regiment ( 1685-1958 )” |
#28
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You didn't find my post helpful then? Oh dear, my bad.
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Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam - I have a catapult. Give me all your money, or I will fling an enormous rock at your head. |
#29
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Quote:
Yes, you're correct, a bit of a sweeping generalisation, I should have been more clear. The regiments did have badges pre-war and there would have been some issued, but as the war dragged on and soldiers were recruited in their 10 of 1000's, the issue of badges became secondary, so what I meant was that it wasn't surprising to see photos of wartime recruits wearing sporrans with no badge. Pre-war I would have expected a badge on the sporran, though there are always exceptions!!! :-) Cheers, Alex |
#30
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Being very new to this scene, can I offer some clues of what he may not be based on my rudimentary and fairly new research and also having some examples in my collection…. both Seaforth and Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders had light facings, Buff for Seaforth and Yellow for A&SH. Owning both examples of these tunics for both regiments dated 1911 and 1914. Also having a royal scots 1913 mess jacket a Royal regiment would have blue facings, the big question remains as to what the facing on the cuffs and collars is. I feel certain that in contrast to the red tunic, the facings cannot be buff, blue or yellow. Does this help?
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Semper In Excremento Sed Profundum Variat |
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piper, scottish regiments |
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