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  #16  
Old 22-01-18, 06:45 PM
Harlequin Harlequin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAS1 View Post
that position (Commandant) always being a serving RAF officer.
This was always the stated case, but strictly-speaking it's an over-simplification. Wartime commandants for the Corps were photographed wearing the collar brass 'A's of the Auxiliary Air Force.

I have always meant to check in the Gazette, but I think that although the vast majority of ROC Commandants were serving regular RAF Air Commodores, key figures holding that position were sometimes actually holding commissions in the AAF or the Reserve of Air Force Officers.

Certainly in my time of service (1970s through to the end, then RAuxAF) it was always end-tour regular Air Cdres
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  #17  
Old 22-01-18, 06:46 PM
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I don't mean that any ROC Officers held the rank of Air Commodore: what I mean is that during WW2, they wore on No1 Service Dress just a single wide black rank-braid ...
Harlequin, I probably didn't explain it properly. As far as I know the wide (Air Commodore) size rank lace was never worn in all black/blue as the Commandant of the Corps was always an RAF officer of Air Commodore rank or above. Four of the (approx) 1cm size was the highest rank in the Corps.
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  #18  
Old 22-01-18, 07:12 PM
Harlequin Harlequin is offline
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Originally Posted by SAS1 View Post
Harlequin, I probably didn't explain it properly. As far as I know the wide (Air Commodore) size rank lace was never worn in all black/blue as the Commandant of the Corps was always an RAF officer of Air Commodore rank or above
I completely understand what you're saying: however, I am also absolutely-certain that AP3215 and AP3306 stated that in principle the rank of Observer Commodore could be awarded to a sometime-future non-RAF CROC. This would not have meant that any totally-black ribbon would've been produced, on the offchance of a future appointment (I think we're both in agreement on this point?)

I'll try and locate the proper detail as to the black cuff-lace that I believe was worn by WW2 era ROC Officers on their No1 HSD: note that unlike Post & Control Observers, they were *not* issued with coveralls or the later RAF pattern battledress.
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  #19  
Old 22-01-18, 07:21 PM
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On a related note: Officers in the USAF have always worn a dark-blue/black rank proxy at the cuff-sleeve of their best blues. This is still a current standard uniform item, and appears to compliment the very US Army-style ranks that the USAF uses. http://www.uniforms-4u.com/p-us-air-...aids-6418.aspx

This has always reminded me of what I imagine the WW2 ROC Officer sleeve 'black grade ribbons' were like- and I strongly-suspect that the Special Duties Civilian Officers may have worn this Officer status indicator as well (just to keep this thread back on track, apologies)
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  #20  
Old 22-01-18, 07:39 PM
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I was thinking we should be opening an Observer Corps thread!

I have a snippet of recent (1980s?) ROC rank, identical to RAF but all black, but later got a WW2 tunic only to find it's more of a dark blue and I think either slightly thinner and/or a different pattern. All my uniforms are in storage at the no but I'll see if I can add a photo sometime.

As to the Special Duties, I'm thinking the 'rank' was denoted by the style of badge, with perhaps later in the war a 'one rank fits all' style arrangement with the chrome badge superseding the cloth badges on the cap and cloth badges replacing the armlet. I'm pretty sure the photo of Sir George Edwards doesn't show rank and am pretty sure my picture of Pickard doesn't either so perhaps like Scripture Readers they had a status equivalent to say a Squadron Leader rank (SRs having equivalent status to Warrant Officers).

A very interesting topic.
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  #21  
Old 22-01-18, 08:31 PM
Harlequin Harlequin is offline
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It is indeed an interesting topic- having served in the 1970s alongside Observers who saw action during the D Day landings (still wearing, even in my time, the 'Seaborne' badges on their uniforms) and some who even saw service during the Battle of Britain, it's an extremely-personal one for me.

I take your point regarding the potential changes during WW2 for the Special Duties badge styles. It seems like an entirely-possible sequence.

I'm still tempted to wonder whether Special Duties Civilian Officers, in Air Force service, might've worn an ROC-style black rank ribbon at the cuff.

A possible supporting bit of evidence towards this could've been a similar such rank indicator worn by Officers of the Civilian Technical Corps (CTC), but I've never seen any evidence in photographs of anyone being appointed to Officer-equivalent rank, in this short-lived and entirely-forgotten Air Force Corps, with a four-bar "cauliflower" badge being the highest non-commissioned rank.

As you'll already know, this exotic style of rank was worn by us in the ROC up until the mid-1990s. If there had ever been ranks (well, grades) used within non-Officer Special Duties or Factory Works staff in uniform it could've made sense for them to have worn similar flat non-chevron rank indicators to those of the ROC and CTC (all of which have a strong ARP/CD Corps style similarity)...but I've never seen any evidence of this (so far)
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  #22  
Old 22-01-18, 09:17 PM
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The CTC is another fascinating area (we'll definitely have to start a new thread!) .

All my stuff is in storage but I have the regs for the CTC and examples of their cloth insignia. There were originally three ranks, with one, two and three bar ROC style badges in silk thread on dark wool distinctly different from the post 1970 ROC ones. I can't remember the rank names although I think one was chargehand, the bars equivalent to Airman (one bar), Corporal (two) and Sergeant (three). A fourth (with a four bar ROC style badge equivalent to Warrant Officer rank) was introduced later, under the title of Forman if I remember correctly. All were American volunteers, most joining the US forces from early 1942. There were no other ranks or officers.

Incidentally, my ROC tunic is named to an officer and has Seaborne titles to each sleeve. They were allowed to be worn to the end of an observers service.
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  #23  
Old 22-01-18, 09:53 PM
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Extract from 'Flight' 2 Oct 1941.

Appointment of a Mr Donald Gill as Commandant C.T.C. If he were not an Officer-grade civilian in the C.T.C (there being no such status) surely he would've been a likely candidate for wearing the uniform of a civilian RAF Special Duties Officer
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  #24  
Old 22-01-18, 10:10 PM
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An interesting and exceedingly-rare picture of C.T.C members in uniform, source is Flight, 9 Oct 1941.

Interesting that some of the men are wearing Service Dress peaks, instead of just forage caps. Perhaps a status signifier? Note that the tunic buttons appear to perhaps be either black bakelite, or (possibly) brown leather covered, as per the dress regulations for Special Duties civilians in RAF uniform. However, the belt buckles are in contrasting brass.



Note the evident lack of any rank insignia (which is annoying) and also the absence of any 'USA' or 'CTC' emblems worn on the sleeves. Perhaps an initial issue photo-opportunity?
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  #25  
Old 22-01-18, 10:17 PM
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The file noted in my first post states quite clearly that no generic RAF badges of any kind would be worn by Special Duties staff - which by implication excludes rank badges - although they could be distinguished by the pattern of uniform worn, some wearing officers style uniforms in finer cloth, others the serge worn by airmen.

When the Official Duties badge was introduced those with officers status wore it on the shoulder strap, others wearing it at the top of the sleeve in the same way as an RAF Regiment title.

Jon
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  #26  
Old 22-01-18, 10:28 PM
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Another tiny but interesting and useful snippet Jon. Many thanks! Now, any photos...?

Without wishing to stray off topic, the CTC were a bit of a law into themselves. I was in touch with a former CTC member years ago and he said on one occasion two members turned up one day with privately made breast badges on showing a US star with red centre and lightening flashes each side. Although the CTC title was official most seem to have preferred a USA title instead. Peaked caps with the CTC badge were issued in the US along with a black silk armband before they received Airmans uniform in the UK. Buttons were a black composite material which apparently fell apart the first time they got wet!

Check the IWM website as they have a series of official CTC photos.
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  #27  
Old 22-01-18, 11:09 PM
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San Bernadino County Sun 6 Oct 1941
CTC insights



(Donald Gill was the lead for the American Chamber of Commerce in the UK, and also lead for the American Red Cross, prior to becoming Commandant CTC. I still feel he might've been a potential candidate for having been issued with RAF Special Duties uniform: if not him, potentially some of his liaison staff. I'll look further into this)
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  #28  
Old 22-01-18, 11:25 PM
Harlequin Harlequin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Postwarden View Post
When the Official Duties badge was introduced those with officers status wore it on the shoulder strap, others wearing it at the top of the sleeve in the same way as an RAF Regiment title.
I'm slightly confused- if individuals had officer status, surely they were being issued with RAF No1 HSD, which usually didn't have any shoulder-straps fitted?

Interestingly, certain pictures of ADCC Officers (and potentially some CAG members) do appear to show their RAF-pattern modified HSD fitted with shoulder-straps, almost in an Army style
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  #29  
Old 22-01-18, 11:46 PM
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I think the badges were limited to the shoulder straps of the battledress for 'officer's.

ADCC officer's did indeed have shoulder straps on the officer pattern tunic, as well as faux French cuffs and three buttons per cuff. It was this latter point that helped me identify and buy an ADCC officer uniform on eBay. They wore silver rank lace on the shoulders.

The CAG was not actually a unit as many think but a flying scheme. There were no officer's or ranks, and the only uniform was a mid blue denim flying suit which was expected to be worn with a Royal blue wool side cap.
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  #30  
Old 23-01-18, 12:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAS1 View Post
I think the badges were limited to the shoulder straps of the battledress for 'officer's.
Then I'm further confused, because I thought there was a consensus that Officer-grade Special Duties personnel only wore Home Service Dress tunics, in finer barathea cotton, which was a visual (and physical) status differentiator, distinguishing them from Other Ranks Special Duties civilians wearing RAF BDs?

Are we saying that Officer grade Special Duties civilians did wear RAF BG BD?? I would imagine that this would've been a possibility, but doesn't this then contradict your initial reference, about the respective differing cloth & cuts, Offrs vs ORs??

I'm almost 100% certain that ROC Offrs, RAFVR ATC Officers, and all WAAFs did not receive any issue of battledress until after WW2. For them, RAF Home Service Dress was a working uniform (as it was, at least until well into WW2 for much of the regular RAF, and a lot of the AAF & VR as well). My guess is that from maybe late 1941, RAF BD began to slowly become a lot more prevalent....still with the exception of the groups above, though, at least as far as I am aware. But I may be wrong...

Last edited by Harlequin; 23-01-18 at 12:43 PM.
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