Army Pay Corps Hat Badge

Good day folks

Is this an Army Pay Corps hat badge. It is too big to be a shoulder title. Has typical D style lugs.

I'm not an APC aficionado so have no idea of the approx dates this would have been worn. The third picture shows the size relative to other badges.

Not my area of collecting so will need a new home.

Thanks for your help.

James

[irishhorse]

Looks to have been worn as a cap badge and a title. Kipling and King 1033. Worn 1898-1900. Westlake 448 pretty 1920 title.

[Toby Purcell]

It came with a back plate and was designed for use as a ‘staff’ forage cap badge with separate crown above and on its own as a shoulder title.

[leigh kitchen]

Was it not worn on its own as a cap badge?

[Alan O]

I am not sure where K&K got the dates for its use as a cap badge. The APC with the QVC badge was the s/p for the cap in that period as far as I can tell. It was then replaced by the k/c version.

https://www.invaluable.com/auction-l...8-c-7c94ee6acd

2 cap badges, a s/t described as a pill box cap badge and collars.

Why the s/t was supposedly used on the pill box cap and not the crowned version is unclear.

[leigh kitchen]

I thought the uncrowned APC was pillbox & shoulder title, Gaylor also mentions it as worn 1898-1900.

[Toby Purcell]

The pillbox forage cap was worn by sergeants and below. The peaked round (aka ‘staff’) forage cap by staff sergeants and warrant officers. Badges were rarely worn on pill box caps, other than rank in some Corps. Badges were worn on the field service cap though.

[Alan O]

Toby,

Unfortunately photo evidence is scarce.

The RAPC Association attributes the crowned badge to SNCOs but does not mention what any junior ranks (were there any or were they regtl clerks?) wore:

https://rapc-association.org.uk/pay-...ican-wars.html

the majority of the APC seem to have been officers and SNCOs drawn from regtl clerks themselves.

Alan

[Milmed]

Just a thought.
From what i have seen the lugs on these titles are always the flat 6 sided lugs as found on shoulder titles and I have never seen the same type of lug on any head dress badge, so to me the logical answer is that these were shoulder titles.

Steven

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Alan O

Toby,

Unfortunately photo evidence is scarce.

The RAPC Association attributes the crowned badge to SNCOs but does not mention what any junior ranks (were there any or were they regtl clerks?) wore:

https://rapc-association.org.uk/pay-...ican-wars.html

the majority of the APC seem to have been officers and SNCOs drawn from regtl clerks themselves.

Alan

You are bang on correct Alan and I wrote to the AGC Museum for that very reason. One of the volunteer curators (ex RAPC) did write back and took the trouble to scan and send me some poor quality photos from old APC Journals. These show a great mixture of head dress until around 1906 when the new coloured forage caps started to create some uniformity. You are correct that the original corps, when formed in 1898 (from memory) was made up from clerks working in various offices and combined with officers of the pay staff. Although some dress regulations were gradually issued, it seems these took some time to come into effect, in part I think because of the 2nd Anglo/Boer War, which fell right across the forming up period. The Army as a whole was very busy (some say almost overwhelmed) at that time so I imagine that such matters took a low priority in terms of the supply chain for clothing and insignia.

[Alan O]

That makes sense. I have found a few period photos of RA with collar grenades and even an ASC with collar badges on pillboxes but none for the APC. I suppose the s/t is a possible stand in badge before the crowned APC one was issued c.1900: although it would look rather odd with the rakish angle that pill boxes seem to have been worn at!

Thanks folks, a very interesting discussion. So with the 6 sided lugs probably a large shoulder title.

It needs a new home by the way.

Thanks

James

[Toby Purcell]

I believe the larger badge with no adornment to be part of a cap badge. As you said initially, it is too big to have been a shoulder title.

[Alan O]

I think that is point that in the absence of a cap badge the s/t was worn. They are the one and the same.

[leigh kitchen]

As I thought, in terms of cap badge & title being the same item, although my only sources of info. are K&K & Gaylor & so hardly in depth research by me or 100% reliable sources.
Now I'm wondering if I've read the info elsewhere......