23rd Armoured Brigade

[3battalion]

Just thought I'd share this nice first pattern 23rd Armoured Brigade patch.

Paul

[rolfi]

Isn't this off a fifties footie shirt? Isn't there a team that has a Liver bird as a badge... name escapes me.

[Peter Brydon]

Not a variation I have ever come across.

P.B.

[Peter Brydon]

Paul,

I wonder what provenance you have that the badge is a 23rd Armoured Brigade badge ?

Peter

[3battalion]

Apologies if this is wrong Gents as it's a little outside my main collecting field.

Page 147 of Bruno Boulanger's WW2 British Formation Badges.

Paul

[Peter Brydon]

Thanks Paul,

I don't have the book but I am 99.99% sure he is not right.

Peter

[3battalion]

Hello Peter,

All very interesting. I know there are some errors in the book and wonder if this is another one. The badge in the book is opposite facing to the one I have so they were obviously issued in pairs. I'll have to do some research and try and find out the history of this badge.

I'd appreciate any help.

Paul

[FMT600]

Originally Posted by 3battalion

Apologies if this is wrong Gents as it's a little outside my main collecting field.

Page 147 of Bruno Boulanger's WW2 British Formation Badges.

Paul

Paul

By his own admission the book is plenty of errors and some of the insignia used are copies, so whilst it's a good effort overall I would treat it with caution and if unsure on a piece of insignia spend some time cross referencing.

Kind regards,

FMT600

[3battalion]

Hello 'FMT600',

As my preceding post highlighted I was aware of the issues with the work. I would appreciate any assistance identifying the patch and any 'cross-referencing' the more experienced formation badge collectors can provide.

Paul

[Peter Brydon]

Paul,

The problem is that many organisations with Liverpool connections used/uses the Liver Bird as a badge, a couple I have and which I cannot identify are pictured.

As Rolfi said there is a fairly well known football team which uses the Liver Bird as a badge and whose colour is red.

( I was most surprised to read an article in one of the Kings Regiment magazines which talked about the Liverpool Pals wearing the " Liver Bird badge " which of course they didn't. )

Peter

[Peter Brydon]

The fact that the badge is question seems to be found in facing pairs is interesting. Giving the matter some further thought, a fairly recent helmet badge worn by a company of ( I think 5/8 Kings ) was a liver bird on a red triangle and was said to be based on a WW1 battalion badge. I cannot remember the precise details but will try and find the reference later when I get back from a Fair.

P.B.

[3battalion]

Very much appreciated Peter.

I do note this badge is exactly lthe same as the Liverpool Football Club. I've emailed Bruno to ascertain his research behind this badge. I've also emailed the dealer I obtained this badge from who incidentally also listed it as belonging to the 23rd.

Sadly, my knowledge of the connection between Liverpool and the 23rd Armoured Brigade is limited and I'm endeavouring to improve this, but I believe the recognised 23rd Arm Bde patch is also a Liver bird?

All very interesting!

Paul

[Peter Brydon]

Paul,

What I was thinking about earlier was an article in the North West Territorial newspaper of September 1994 about helmet flashes adopted by 5/8 Kings (copy attached )

In the text of the article it mentions the Liver Bird badge adopted by A (The Kings Liverpool ) Company and also mentions a black Liver Bird being worn by the Kings Liverpools as an arm badge during WW2.

This is the only reference I have ever seen to this " black Liver Bird arm badge " and I think it may well be the 23rd Armoured Brigade badge which was worn by the former 7th Kings Liverpools when they were 40th ( The Kings ) Royal Tank Regiment to which they are referring.

I am afraid a number of dealers try to attribute unknown items to the Kings Liverpools, I presume because they know there are a number of keen Kings collectors about. I would be very interested to see what your dealer says and I would be more than happy if a previously unknown military badge has turned up.

Regards


Peter

[FMT600]

Originally Posted by 3battalion

Hello 'FMT600',

As my preceding post highlighted I was aware of the issues with the work. I would appreciate any assistance identifying the patch and any 'cross-referencing' the more experienced formation badge collectors can provide.

Paul

Paul,

I suppose a Liver Bird is a bit like a Yorkshire Rose, used by many organisations and not just the Army.

Like you I would be interested in what Bruno (and the bloke who sold you it) has to say about it as when I pointed out to Bruno that I had some issued with his 25th Army Tank Brigade and 25th Armoured Engineer Brigade formation signs he was most vague and that's when he admitted he had used a number of items of copy insignia in the book.

I sincerely wish you luck with finding out what it is and I hope it turns out to be what you expected as unusual things do crop up on occasion and whilst I have not seen an example previously that does not necessarily mean it does not exist and of course I like everyone else still have plenty to learn about the Intricacies of British military insignia.

A man who may well know what it is or is not is Barry Morris of Morris Militaria who knows rather a lot about cloth, so it may be worth your while getting in touch with him at:

barrie@morrismilitaria.co.uk

Kind Regards,

FMT600

[3battalion]

Hello Gents,

I really do appreciate the effort to find out more about this patch. I'll keep everyone updated on the replies I receive so we may learn if this indeed a military patch or a civilian patch mistakenly identified as belonging to the 23rd.

I've learnt a lot whilst trying to ID this patch and it has, once again, highlighted the willingness of forum members to give their time and knowledge making this forum special.

Thanks again

Paul