ww1 medals & insignia

[Tony B]

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley

The 4th SAI wore the attached.

Hi Frank and all,
In delving into this I have now discovered a 2nd relative. This one on my mothers side of the family.

13071 T.C.J. Bennette Coy. 1st Regt. SAI who died 24 March 1918 aged 21. He also served in East Africa.
He is buried at Pozieres Memorial Cemetery. I assume he died in the battle of the Somme.

As the 4th SAI was a Scottish affiliated division as shown in Franks badges pic. would I be correct in assuming that the 1st SAI which had no Scottish connection had the same insignia minus the tartan and thistle on the shoulder titles?

Cheers, Tony.

[Frank Kelley]

Good gracious me, Sunday the 24th of March, what a remarkable day that was, a really desperate fight at Marrieres Wood, the SA Brigade was down to only five hundred at that point.
The 4th SAI was a regiment, within the SA Brigade and not a division, regarding the badges, each regiment within the brigade had it's own collar badges and numeral worn with their SA/ZA brigade shoulder titles.

Originally Posted by Tony B

Hi Frank and all,
In delving into this I have now discovered a 2nd relative. This one on my mothers side of the family.

13071 T.C.J. Bennette Coy. 1st Regt. SAI who died 24 March 1918 aged 21. He also served in East Africa.
He is buried at Pozieres Memorial Cemetery. I assume he died in the battle of the Somme.

As the 4th SAI was a Scottish affiliated division as shown in Franks badges pic. would I be correct in assuming that the 1st SAI which had no Scottish connection had the same insignia minus the tartan and thistle on the shoulder titles?

Cheers, Tony.

[milhistry]

1 SAI wore the "goat-in-the-porthole" as cap badge in common with 2,3 & 4 SAI. Collar badges were a springbok face over a ribbon with motto. They were actually the inspiration for the "bokkop" badges worn by the SA Infantry Corps when it was created in the 1950s. Shoulder titles were either "South Africa -Inf-Zuid-Africa" or "SOUTH-AFRICA". The latter one more common in photos of officers.

[milhistry]

1 SAI wore the "goat-in-the-porthole" as cap badge in common with 2,3 & 4 SAI. Collar badges were a springbok face over a ribbon with motto. They were actually the inspiration for the "bokkop" badges worn by the SA Infantry Corps when it was created in the 1950s. Shoulder titles were either "South Africa -Inf-Zuid-Africa" or "SOUTH-AFRICA". The latter one more common in photos of officers but they didn't always seam to wear them so I don't know how official they were.

[milhistry]

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205389083

[milhistry]

Back to the SA Scottish. An interesting group photo of Officers. Note variety of headgear. Cap bands a la Scots Guards even!

[Tony B]

Nice photos milhistry. Thanks for sharing.

[iaindh]

My own little collection; still missing one 4th thistle Title.
Hope this helps

a 1172.jpg a 1173.jpg

regards, Iain

[iaindh]

Milhistry,

when you refer to the "South Africa" title worn by Officers, do you mean the semi circular one?

a 1178.jpg

regards, Iain

Originally Posted by milhistry

1 SAI wore the "goat-in-the-porthole" as cap badge in common with 2,3 & 4 SAI. Collar badges were a springbok face over a ribbon with motto. They were actually the inspiration for the "bokkop" badges worn by the SA Infantry Corps when it was created in the 1950s. Shoulder titles were either "South Africa -Inf-Zuid-Africa" or "SOUTH-AFRICA". The latter one more common in photos of officers but they didn't always seam to wear them so I don't know how official they were.

[Alex Rice]

Originally Posted by iaindh

My own little collection; still missing one 4th thistle Title.
Hope this helps

Attachment 169671 Attachment 169672

regards, Iain

Very nice!

[iaindh]

Thanks Alex

the last time a Thistle title came up for sale, it sold for about R1.5 G

Originally Posted by Alex Rice

Very nice!

[Alex Rice]

Originally Posted by iaindh

Thanks Alex

the last time a Thistle title came up for sale, it sold for about R1.5 G

Wow, that is a fortune!!
Don't tell my wife, she'll sell mine...

[Frank Kelley]

Hello Brian,
I would not consider any badges worn by rank and file members of the SA Infantry Brigade as scarce in particular, but, then I have not actually looked for them in recent years.
I stand by my thoughts, in particular, my comments regarding the lack of badges in South Africa because of their greater value when sold out of the country.
I have to say that I am rather circumspect with regard to the springbok and thistle titles, it was certainly suggested, to me as a boy, that they were intended to be worn on the greatcoat and they were bought, but, quite frankly, I have yet to see any real tangible evidence.
Regarding officers, I don't think I have ever seen them worn by an officer and I do have a pair that were in the effects of a 4th SAI ranker who was wounded on the first day the regiment left their line and joined battle in July 1916, he was wounded and did not fight again, notwithstanding, whilst these could certainly have been added at a latter date, you will always get all these "experts" who will say that they were produced towards the end of the war and the same applies with the regimental buttons.

The badges worn by officers are a very different matter altogether and from my experience of collecting, these can and certainly should, be, considered very scarce indeed, the OSD die cast service dress, regimental collar badges did not turn up in South Africa and despite being made here in Great Britain, they have very rarely appeared, there is certainly a finite number in existence today.
In the particular case of the 4th Regiment, their handsome and rather disproportionately heavy, mercurial fire gilt, die cast copper cap, glengarry and bonnet badges are actually rare, in both sizes and always have been from my experience.
Regards Frank

Originally Posted by Brian Conyngham

Guys

The common consensus these days regards those "scarce' Springbok shoulder titles is that they were private purchase in the UK. Hence the theory being they were only worn by officers.

There was the common issue "South Africa INF" Brigade shoulder title in various variations, and these are still in abundance BUT the SA Scottish are really scarce, one just does not see them at all.

I stand to be corrected but if I recall correctly Mark Smith once said that Sam Foote agrees with this.`

Brian

[Alex Rice]

I should also mention that there was a 4 SAI glengarry badge, which was a large version of the collar badge. There is one in the Old Fort MOTH museum (not on display) in Durban, still on a glengarry.
Must be incredibly rare.
Cheers,
Alex

[iaindh]

Alex,

I have seen one on a Atholl tartan Tammy, not a Glegarry but the owner didn't want to part with it; ( ) his Grandfather was at Delville Wood so I can understand.

regards, Iain

Originally Posted by Alex Rice

I should also mention that there was a 4 SAI glengarry badge, which was a large version of the collar badge. There is one in the Old Fort MOTH museum (not on display) in Durban, still on a glengarry.
Must be incredibly rare.
Cheers,
Alex