Royal Irish Fusiliers Question WWI Shoulder Titles

[Todd_R]

Hello Gents,
What shoulder titles would be appropriate for the regiment during WWI?
Flaming Grenades with R.I.F., or the ones with I(grenade)F?

Reading Westlake I believe it would be the latter but from pictures it appears
The former?

Thanks for the help!

Todd

[John Mulcahy]

The seperate universal grenade with 'R.I.F" below, Westlake 1398, is correct for WWI metal titles

This is sealed pattern number (SPN) 4802A, sealed 12/10/1903 as recorded in the List of Changes WO359 vol.12 p.228 and WO359 vol. 13 p18.

Westlake 1400 has no sealing data in the list of changes and is believed to be a regimental supply. Date of introduction unknown but likely 1920 onwards

Westlake 1401 is SPN 11262 sealed June 21, 1938 WO359 VOL. 19 p68. The old pattern is shown as SPN 4802A despite Westlake 1400 being in proven use via period photographs.

Westlake's book is a fine album of titles but, does not quote any primary references and is quite inaccurate in terms of dating and even usage in many cases in my opinion.

John

[John Mulcahy]

Regarding Westlake 1401 I should add that it is noted as "old pattern" in the Regimental Gazette, "Faugh-a-Ballagh". July 1939. Which describes the New Pattern (Westlake 1402) as "They are not unlike the old one except for the word "Royal" beneath the grenade".

John

[Todd_R]

Thank you very much John!

[John Mulcahy]

Originally Posted by Todd_R

Thank you very much John!

My pleasure.

[Toby Purcell]

There was also apparently a “Title worsted embroidered Service dress Cloth melton thick” sealed in June 1916 and made obsolete in 1919. Some of the sealed pattern cards for this universal style are also stamped - “Temporary for period of the war”. I don’t know to what extent they were issued in the RIF, as each regiment had different circumstances for the supply of metal types. Originally a slip on (the shoulder strap) type, in 1917 it was ordered that they were instead to be stitched directly on to the upper arm. Again the take up varied according to the local circumstances of battalions. The purpose of these titles was apparently twofold, they were to reduce the usage of metal that could be used for more pressing war requirements, and they were less likely to get snagged by equipment. There were some variants, the final pattern issued was screen printed instead of woven, and one woven type for all fusilier units including RIF had a raised ball to the grenade, the same as that favoured by the Grenadier Guards. There seems little evidence that these were worn by the RIF very much, probably because to the regiment their ‘Quails’, as they nicknamed their metal titles, were very important to their sense of identity due to the rare honour of a Napoleonic eagle representing the one that they’d captured a century before.

[John Mulcahy]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

There was also apparently a “Title worsted embroidered Service dress Cloth melton thick” sealed in June 1916 and made obsolete in 1919. .

Indeed there were and there was (at least) two patterns. SPN 8909 was sealed on Jun 8,1916 under the description "titles WD embd SD cloth drab Melton thick "R.I.F. and Grenade" old pattern 8297/1915" (WO359, vol 16 P.27)

In the first patterns (dated 1915), the title was held on to the epaulette by two straps (called tapes in official records). The change in pattern in 1916 was due to (at least) the method of attachment being modified from tapes to a “slip-on” sleeve.

These were indeed a wartime economy measure and, unlike the situation with BM cap badges, cloth titles WERE introduced to conserve metal. Based on my understanding GRO 2137 of Feb. 13, 1917 ordered that they be moved to the top of the sleeve just below the point of the shoulder so that they were more visible. The use of the war time cloth titles was rescinded on 28th April 1919, when the pre-war metal titles were re-authorized (Recorded in U.K., The National Archives, ACD Record of Changes, Catalogue Reference W.O. 359, vol. 16, 123.)

John

[John Mulcahy]

Todd R.

I need to correct my input on Westlake 1400 when I mentioned that its use was likely 1920 onwards.

Whereas SPN 4802A (Grenade with separate RIF) was the officially approved metal title. Your query got me thinking.

I did some online searching today and found evidence that Westlake 1400 was possibly worn during the Great War

Cpl William Irwin 9th RIF served from 1916 - 1919 and assuming this is him in the link below (I have no reason to doubt that it is) he is wearing Westlake 1400 likely sometime between April 1916 and April 1918 (when he was interned as a POW)

https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm....sh%2BFusiliers

I bet if we looked further we would find more evidence so, I think its fair to assume that the title shown as Westlake 1400 was worn during the great war as an unofficial, regimental pattern but I dont know to what extent. Both metal titles may be appropriate , a study of period photographs would reveal more.


John

[cavalryman]

Hi John & Toby, Here is the sealed pattern photographed in the

Royal Irish Fusiliers museum, unfortunately the drawer it is in won't come out

any further to take a better shot.

IMG_0433.jpg

regards John

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by John Mulcahy

Indeed there were and there was (at least) two patterns. SPN 8909 was sealed on Jun 8,1916 under the description "titles WD embd SD cloth drab Melton thick "R.I.F. and Grenade" old pattern 8297/1915" (WO359, vol 16 P.27)

In the first patterns (dated 1915), the title was held on to the epaulette by two straps (called tapes in official records). The change in pattern in 1916 was due to (at least) the method of attachment being modified from tapes to a “slip-on” sleeve.

These were indeed a wartime economy measure and, unlike the situation with BM cap badges, cloth titles WERE introduced to conserve metal. Based on my understanding GRO 2137 of Feb. 13, 1917 ordered that they be moved to the top of the sleeve just below the point of the shoulder so that they were more visible. The use of the war time cloth titles was rescinded on 28th April 1919, when the pre-war metal titles were re-authorized (Recorded in U.K., The National Archives, ACD Record of Changes, Catalogue Reference W.O. 359, vol. 16, 123.)

John

Thank you John for your as ever thorough elucidation.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by John Mulcahy

Indeed there were and there was (at least) two patterns. SPN 8909 was sealed on Jun 8,1916 under the description "titles WD embd SD cloth drab Melton thick "R.I.F. and Grenade" old pattern 8297/1915" (WO359, vol 16 P.27)

In the first patterns (dated 1915), the title was held on to the epaulette by two straps (called tapes in official records). The change in pattern in 1916 was due to (at least) the method of attachment being modified from tapes to a “slip-on” sleeve.

These were indeed a wartime economy measure and, unlike the situation with BM cap badges, cloth titles WERE introduced to conserve metal. Based on my understanding GRO 2137 of Feb. 13, 1917 ordered that they be moved to the top of the sleeve just below the point of the shoulder so that they were more visible. The use of the war time cloth titles was rescinded on 28th April 1919, when the pre-war metal titles were re-authorized (Recorded in U.K., The National Archives, ACD Record of Changes, Catalogue Reference W.O. 359, vol. 16, 123.)

John

Originally Posted by cavalryman

Hi John & Toby, Here is the sealed pattern photographed in the

Royal Irish Fusiliers museum, unfortunately the drawer it is in won't come out

any further to take a better shot.

Attachment 287756

regards John

Thank you John, it’s interesting to see a sealed pattern for the RIF as per my description.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by John Mulcahy

Todd R.

I need to correct my input on Westlake 1400 when I mentioned that its use was likely 1920 onwards.

Whereas SPN 4802A (Grenade with separate RIF) was the officially approved metal title. Your query got me thinking.

I did some online searching today and found evidence that Westlake 1400 was possibly worn during the Great War

Cpl William Irwin 9th RIF served from 1916 - 1919 and assuming this is him in the link below (I have no reason to doubt that it is) he is wearing Westlake 1400 likely sometime between April 1916 and April 1918 (when he was interned as a POW)

https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm....sh%2BFusiliers

I bet if we looked further we would find more evidence so, I think its fair to assume that the title shown as Westlake 1400 was worn during the great war as an unofficial, regimental pattern but I dont know to what extent. Both metal titles may be appropriate , a study of period photographs would reveal more.


John

I’ve been disappointed by the paucity of WW1 images of the RIF. Just one or two appeared to show one piece titles.

[Todd_R]

Thank you gentleman! I was researching a bit to put some insignia together to display and just couldn’t come up with a clear picture of what was worn and when.

Thank you for clarifying this!
Todd