KRRC Badge Change

[Charlie585]

Originally Posted by Jeff Mc William

"Got you Jeff..!"

Sorry Charlie...what did I say that was wrong ?

My bad grammar Jeff, I should have said "with you " or "understood"

my apologies.

Ry

[Jeff Mc William]

Originally Posted by Charlie585

My bad grammar Jeff, I should have said "with you " or "understood"

my apologies.

Ry

No problems Charlie....I misunderstood you, sorry. I shoudn't be so damned "touchy" Best wishes Jeff

[Charlie585]

Attachment 53586Hello again gents,

With reference to my question in post 8 of this thread and in answer to the enquiry from royalgreenjackets. In light of the badge posted in the albums by Alan O recently, am I now correct in assuming that the badges for the KRRC from the beginning of the last century until amalgamation into the Green Jackets Brigade are as follows:

1. KK673 QVC no SA honours (small)
2. KK674 KC no SA honours (small)
3. KK675 KC no SA honours (large/Pagri)
4. KK2011 KC with SA honours (large)
5. KK2251 KC plastic (as KK2011)
6. KK2012 QC plastic

I don’t expect an answer from those that may know but didn’t see fit to answer the question and I hope Andy and Alan that you don’t mind the rest of the membership viewing your examples in the pictures below.

If any member has a picture of KK2251 that they would like to contribute to the thread please feel free to do so.

I hope that if correct this post helps those of us who did not know the exact order of the badges and also those like me that struggle with the awful images in K&K.

Regards

RY

[royalgreenjackets]

Hi everyone,

This link will take you to all the badges of the KRRC.

http://www.krrcassociation.com/badges.htm

[Charlie585]

Originally Posted by royalgreenjackets

Hi everyone,

This link will take you to all the badges of the KRRC.

http://www.krrcassociation.com/badges.htm

"REALLY"

RGJ, You'll have to excuse me if I have missed something and very well presented as those badges on your site are, from what I can see, they do not in any way shape or form represent "All" the badges of the KRRC!

You asked the forum for help in your initial post in this thread and it was offered, both within the thread and via Email which you chose not to answer!

You have obviously decided you know better than anyone else and that is a shame because if the badges on your site are taken as the definitive reference that you assume them to be, it can only lead to misinformation and tragically confusion and therefore loss of an accurate account of part of your regimental history. It is just this sort of half hearted, half truth type of behaviour that lets down organisations such as yours which in reality should be striving to compile and disseminate accurate historical information that truly represents fact, otherwise what is the point. What a shame!

[royalgreenjackets]

Originally Posted by Charlie585

"REALLY"

RGJ, You'll have to excuse me if I have missed something and very well presented as those badges on your site are, from what I can see, they do not in any way shape or form represent "All" the badges of the KRRC!

You asked the forum for help in your initial post in this thread and it was offered, both within the thread and via Email which you chose not to answer!

You have obviously decided you know better than anyone else and that is a shame because if the badges on your site are taken as the definitive reference that you assume them to be, it can only lead to misinformation and tragically confusion and therefore loss of an accurate account of part of your regimental history. It is just this sort of half hearted, half truth type of behaviour that lets down organisations such as yours which in reality should be striving to compile and disseminate accurate historical information that truly represents fact, otherwise what is the point. What a shame!

WOW !

I haven't had a bollocking like that in years and, in my view, entirely unwarranted. It wasn't bad manners on my part that I didn't reply to the 2 messages, it's just that I never noticed that I had them ! No, I don't know better than anyone else (that's why I came onto this Thread asking for help)
but when I was offered these Badges by the "powers that be" to put them on our website I heartily agreed. I gave you the link to the page for your information and to thank you all for your help. I'm not an expert on the Badges (to me, a badge is a badge) but when I'm offered them by Regimental Historians I gladly accept them as bona fida (I would have no reason not to).
I will gladly accept a personal email to splyons@btinternet.com from you with your reason why you think they are NOT the definitive items. I shall finish here as I'm bloody angry at the tone of your reply.

[davec2]

Originally Posted by Charlie585

Hello again gents,

With reference to my question in post 8 of this thread and in answer to the enquiry from royalgreenjackets. In light of the badge posted in the albums by Alan O recently, am I now correct in assuming that the badges for the KRRC from the beginning of the last century until amalgamation into the Green Jackets Brigade are as follows:

1. KK673 QVC no SA honours (small)
2. KK674 KC no SA honours (small)
3. KK675 KC no SA honours (large/Pagri)
4. KK2011 KC with SA honours (large)
5. KK2251 KC plastic (as KK2011)
6. KK2012 QC plastic

I don’t expect an answer from those that may know but didn’t see fit to answer the question and I hope Andy and Alan that you don’t mind the rest of the membership viewing your examples in the pictures below.

If any member has a picture of KK2251 that they would like to contribute to the thread please feel free to do so.

I hope that if correct this post helps those of us who did not know the exact order of the badges and also those like me that struggle with the awful images in K&K.

Regards

RY

Hy Ry,

I'm a little wary of coming in on this debate, tempers are flaring and I'm not sure that I want to get involved.

You more than anyone knows of my new interest in the Londons and I have included the KRRC ( mainly from yourself ), in my collection, simply because I like the badge and not necessarily because of the history.

I do have an example of K.& K.2251, a recent acquisition, I hope it helps and I also hope we can all calm down................................or is it now water under the bridge ??

Happy collecting folks.

Dave.

[Charlie585]

Originally Posted by royalgreenjackets

WOW !

I haven't had a bollocking like that in years and, in my view, entirely unwarranted. It wasn't bad manners on my part that I didn't reply to the 2 messages, it's just that I never noticed that I had them ! No, I don't know better than anyone else (that's why I came onto this Thread asking for help)
but when I was offered these Badges by the "powers that be" to put them on our website I heartily agreed. I gave you the link to the page for your information and to thank you all for your help. I'm not an expert on the Badges (to me, a badge is a badge) but when I'm offered them by Regimental Historians I gladly accept them as bona fida (I would have no reason not to).
I will gladly accept a personal email to splyons@btinternet.com from you with your reason why you think they are NOT the definitive items. I shall finish here as I'm bloody angry at the tone of your reply.

Good morning RGJ,

I have sent you an Email explaining my position on this matter and hope that it meets with your understanding.

I do apologise for the tone of my previous post, you are justified in feeling that it was unwarranted, though I feel equally justified in expressing the sentiment that it contained with regard to the degree of accuracy in the matter of the badges.

The information that you require to complete your quest with a high degree of accuracy is available, in fact a great deal of it is staring you in the face in this thread. I sincerley hope that the information you require is forthcoming and that you accept and adopt it. Possibly not from this quarter though as for the reasons that I have stated in my Email I have lost heart with regard to further participation of matters KRRC and will for the time being confine my efforts to THE RIFLE BRIGADE only.

I will reiterate my view that unless attention to detail is applied in these matters there is a strong probability that aspects of the history of your unit will be lost, something I find very unfortunate and ultimately avoidable. To quote you "(to me, a badge is a badge)" that is what worries me and leads me to wonder why you bothered to make the enquiry in the first place!

Not another Bo***cking, just a response to the debate. One that I hope will encourage you to get it right for the sake of posterity.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nice badge Dave,

The KRRC badges in general are in my opinion very attractive and there is no doubt that there is a fine tradition of military history behind them mate.

Thanks for showing it.

Regards to all.

Ry

[royalgreenjackets]

Originally Posted by Charlie585

Good morning RGJ,

I have sent you an Email explaining my position on this matter and hope that it meets with your understanding.

I do apologise for the tone of my previous post, you are justified in feeling that it was unwarranted, though I feel equally justified in expressing the sentiment that it contained with regard to the degree of accuracy in the matter of the badges.

The information that you require to complete your quest with a high degree of accuracy is available, in fact a great deal of it is staring you in the face in this thread. I sincerley hope that the information you require is forthcoming and that you accept and adopt it. Possibly not from this quarter though as for the reasons that I have stated in my Email I have lost heart with regard to further participation of matters KRRC and will for the time being confine my efforts to THE RIFLE BRIGADE only.

I will reiterate my view that unless attention to detail is applied in these matters there is a strong probability that aspects of the history of your unit will be lost, something I find very unfortunate and ultimately avoidable. To quote you "(to me, a badge is a badge)" that is what worries me and leads me to wonder why you bothered to make the enquiry in the first place!

Not another Bo***cking, just a response to the debate. One that I hope will encourage you to get it right for the sake of posterity.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nice badge Dave,

The KRRC badges in general are in my opinion very attractive and there is no doubt that there is a fine tradition of military history behind them mate.

Thanks for showing it.

Regards to all.

Ry

Ry and I have exchanged emails and are now on friendly terms. The reason I first came on here was ask a question about the date(s) of the Peninsula Cross. I couldn't get an answer from the "powers that be" in the Association so I thought "those guys in the Military Badge Forum will know"! I know Ry is worried that historical information on the Badges of the KRRC will be lost if not published correctly but I don't decide what goes on the website. I just put it there.

Regards,

Seamus

[royalgreenjackets]

I forgot to say that I am going to collect all the information on the Badges that Ry says is here, collate and offer it to the "powers that be" of the Association. So beware, I will be asking more questions!!

[Charlie585]

Good luck in your endeavours Seamus,

It will be a pleasure if you manage to persuade the powers that be of the importance of presenting the information in a factual way and we may all learn from the process.

All the best.

Ry

[royalgreenjackets]

Hi Ry,

Well, it's going to be a "Fait accompli". Who was it said "publish and be dammed!" lol

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by royalgreenjackets

I forgot to say that I am going to collect all the information on the Badges that Ry says is here, collate and offer it to the "powers that be" of the Association. So beware, I will be asking more questions!!

I just wanted to add my support Seamus, for what you are attempting to do.

I can see both sides of what has taken place and hope that you can understand the almost religious fervour that some of us have with regard to the chronology and design of badges.

All that said, I can fully identify with the view of those in the "a badge is just a badge" camp too. Many soldiers during my service were amused by my interest in the regimental insignia and were more interested in their flak jackets / body armour and that their boots fitted. Sometimes it would be as well for us 'badgies' to remember that.

I admire you all the more for seeing through all this 'harrumphing' and reaching an amicable and eminently pragmatic rapprochement.

Best wishes,

Toby

[royalgreenjackets]

Thanks Toby. Perhaps I should change my quote to "a badge is just a badge until you delve into the history of it" lol. I must admit, I'm finding it a daunting task but I and my colleague will persevere. At the moment, I'm also scouring the "deep web" (Universities/Major Libraries etc) for articles that you can't find just using normal search engines.

Seamus

[MBrockway]

Originally Posted by Jeff Mc William

Keith, Alan, & Charlie
Sorry gents but I beg to differ :
I'm afraid I dont know the specific answer to your question "royalgreenjackets" but I can confirm that the badge you originally posted was indeed introduced in 1906 (see extracts from the regimental history as shown). It differed from the 1827-83 badge by the additional honour Busaco, not granted until 1880.
The volume on "Uniform, Armanent, & Equipment" (from which this information comes) was published in 1913, and, as can be seen, this item is still labelled "The present badge of the regiment". However, when it was eventually changed, I have no information at the moment. Regards Jeff
Attachment 34418 Attachment 34419 Attachment 34420 Attachment 34421

Jeff,

I should stress that the text you have quoted from Astley Terry's 1913 KRRC Annals Uniform, Armament and Equipment Appendix and which points to Plate 'h' (the 1906 Peninsula Cross), comes from the section describing the crossbelt badge. It's headed The Cross on the Pouch-belt.

The section immediately following is headed The Cross on the Cap (for which read 'headgear in general' rather than just 'caps') and includes ...

"[On] the introduction of the helmet in 1878 [...] A large cross was now adopted for all ranks with a crown of proportionate size; the points were without knobs, but the lions between the limbs were retained; the scrolls were similar, and the centre of the circle was perforated, showing the bugle and '60' in relief over scarlet cloth. [This is K&K 196A] In 1881 the '60' was omitted. In 1883 the bronze cap-plate was assimilated in shape to the cross on the belt [which is the Fig. 3 on Plate 'g' in your post & re-posted below]

1890. On the re-introduction of the busby a small cross again became necessary, the crown being, as before, detached and placed on the cockade. This cross is badly proportioned and its outline quite incorrect - a fault due to the ignorance of the War Office draughtsman or some stupid tailor. [This is K&K 268]

K&K describes another cap badge K&K 269, which is identical to Fig.3 on plate 'g'.


It is listed as being used on the white helmet (K&K p.134) - presumably the Foreign Service cloth helmet, which continued in use by the KRRC battalions overseas after the re-introduction of the rifle busby in 1890.

I have no conclusive evidence , but it is my feeling that K&K 269 was also used on the Home Service cloth helmet from 1883 (as per Astley Terry above) up to the switch back to the rifle busby in 1890.

DNW have had auction lots of K&K 269 described as in use 1881-1891, but this seems over-simplified when the badge includes battle honours like TEL-EL-KEBIR (from 1882) and EGYPT 1882, 1884.

Relating to the crossbelt badge, Astley Terry passes this off with the phrase from time to time honours continued to be added. Very frustrating that there's no further detail!

What is less clear is what badge was used between the dropping of regimental numbering in 1881 and 1883.


I don't think the 1906 Peninsula Cross, which includes the '60' in the centre, was used as a cap badge.

The full dress busby used K&K 268, the glengarry used K&K 521 and 522 and when the field service cap appeared we began to see K&K 673, 674 & 675.

It seems to have been used as the crossbelt badge and also as a general regimental 'crest' on flags and general publicity. It adorns the cover of every KRRC Chronicle right up to the final edition in 1965 for example!

If anyone has any detailed information of the badges used on the helmet 1878 to 1890, I'd be very interested.

Likewise if anyone can cast light on the dates specific battle honours appeared on specific badges. 2nd Boer War honours have already been discussed re K&K 673-675, but it would be great to get better info on some of the others and obviously very useful for dating purposes.

Cheers,
Mark