"French" Commando

[NEMO]

HI Paul , the pile of collectors / special forces literature u got from me , wasn`t there a really good old article on this badge from the french version of militaria magazine from years back with really good pics ?

[tcrown]

Paul, I’m not convinced about your photo of an original as well as the Gaunt story.
Mike, Eric Le Pleven’s book is indeed excellent. He has a few photos of original badges on pages 276 & 277. From these, I don’t recognize the details presented by Paul.
Maybe, it is already too much information given to the fakers...😜

[Belly]

Why?

[tcrown]

Paul,
When I look at the photos of original badges displayed on E. Le Pleven's book (Loverini's and Guezennec's badges), assuming of course they are originals, I don't see the details on the edge of the sails that you have on the 'Made in England' version that you showed. From that perspective, the 'JR Gaunt C 1943' version would be closer to the original, but as already mentioned, I don't have a high resolution photo of an original to refer to.
As for the assumption that Gaunt didn't produce the 'JR Gaunt C 1943' version but the other one, this is pure speculation of course.

[Belly]

Hi Pierre
Which page numbers are the images you're referring to on? I'm struggling to see any clear pictures of badges in the book? I think I know which traits you might be referring to though which appear on common fakes.
All I know is that the original I have shown, along with the front of the Made in England I have shown is consistent with Badge No 1 and other known originals in private hands.
Yes my 43 Gaunt theory is an educated guess, but those badges do not have the quality of an original military badge manufacturer with over a 100 years' experience. In my view though the Made in England does have the quality and finish of a 'real' military badge, so these could well be the commemorative ones made by Gaunt after the war.
Cheers
Paul

[Belly]

Looking through my archives, I actually found a better image of the 'Gaunt 43' badge, see attached. As you can see it is terrible quality!
There's no way respected military badge manufacturer would turn out anything so bad

[Belly]

For comparison, a well polished 'Made in England' badge

[tcrown]

Thanks Paul for sharing these photos.
After reviewing them carefully, I might be close to something. I'll be analyzing more when I have time and come back to you.

I suspect we don't have the same version of Le Penven's book: mine is the French version. I've attached a photo of Guezennec's badge, not very good on details I'm afraid.
Cheers
Pierre

[Mike B]

Looking forward to hearing more - An interesting thread and good to share ideas.

[half12]

Hi gents,

Le Penven has produced two books : No4 Commando - Heimdal 2004 (shown by Pierre) and another one : Commando Kieffer - Heimdal 2006.

Best regards .. Herve

[Belly]

Thanks for clarifying Herve
Mine is the latter, but I'm struggling to see any differences to the original I posted, but it's not a very clear image in the book
cheers
Paul

[Belly]

Here's another FAKE one to add in to the mix:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/insigne-1-...19.m1438.l2649

[tcrown]

Paul,

I managed to spend a little bit of time on your pics and on others.
Here are my thoughts:

1- You’re right about the ‘Made in England’ pattern being closer to the original (first photo)
The ribbon tells a lot (spacing of the letters to both edges, bar on the ‘A’). In that respect the comparison with the Gaunt is a no brainer: beside the letters, the flaws of the Gaunt are obvious (misalignment of the mainmast, distorted edge of the lug sail).

2- The ‘Made in England’ although very close is probably not an exact copy of the original (2nd photo)
Because of the lack of high resolution photos of an original, I can’t be certain, but I see some differences with Kieffer’s badge in particular the wave immediately under the bow (front wave) as well as the stern.

3- Two types of ‘wave’ (3rd photo)
In comparing two ‘Made in England’ badges, I see differences in the front wave. Does it mean this version has been copied?

My view is the 1er BFM Commando badge has been copied many times and very early after the war probably for the needs of the veterans' association. Maurice Chauvet might have been involved in that process and the badges were sourced from England.
The ‘commando marine’ badge was first issued in 1946 and has been manufactured by several French makers but Gaunt was not involved. IMO, the French versions are less detailed and much ‘heavier’ compared to the original. Most of the modern copies are closer to the French pattern.

Cheers
Pierre

[Belly]

Hi Pierre
Great analysis! I don’t think my original thoughts have changed, see below:

1- I don’t think the badge on the beret you show in this photo is an original (i.e. one of the 400), because of the points you raise – spacing of the letters and the large gaps at the end of the scroll. All known originals have the letters like the right hand badge (tight to the edge of each end), which is the same on the original 400 and the Made in England. This is backed up by the attached article (sorry can't remember the magazine).

2&3- You’re not comparing like with like with this one unfortunately as the Made in England badge has had all the details polished out, i.e the waves and the sword details. Attached is an image of an unpolished ‘Made in England’ (courtesy of Mike Beckett). As you can see it’s an exact copy of the original (the wave with the 2 little waves at the front, scroll lettering etc).

To me the England badges are the same from the front, and are consistent with Badge No 1, the others I know of in private collections. There were clear images of 2 originals on here somewhere (badges 122 & 284) but I can't seem to find the post. Again all consistent.

The only thing that confuses me is the gap between the stern and the sail on badge No 1 which looks different to all other known originals, I can only guess its a trick of light or the way its been polished as it looks odd. Pictures don't really do these badges justice though, you just have to handle them to really see the detail.

Cheers
Paul

[tcrown]

Thanks Paul.

Sorry about the confusion, my first photo was a comparison between a Gaunt and a 'Made in England'.

Your article seems to show a 'pointy' stern on the original badge same as with Badge #1. I wish I could handle an original: there are still a few unknowns to make a definitive conclusion about the Made in England being an exact copy of the original. Loverini's and Guezennec's badges, as presented in Le Penven's book don't have the 'pointy' stern...

Researches will have to continue!

Cheers
Pierre