HLI NCO's bonnet badge

[Alan O]

Can anyone tell me if the HLI SNCOs had a bi-metal badge for No1 dress or was this an officer's affection?

[Jeff Mc William]

Originally Posted by Alan O

Can anyone tell me if the HLI SNCOs had a bi-metal badge for No1 dress or was this an officer's affection?

Hi Alan
Not quite sure what you mean. Surely the HLI did not wear the bonnet ?? (apart from pipers & bandsmen)
However, the short answer to your question I'm sure is "yes" ! This can be confirmed in the McKay & Anderson book and also by a number of base-metal/bi-metal badges on the market from time to time. Regards Jeff

[Alan O]

I was not confining the question to just bonnets. Equally did they wear bimetal badges on glengarries or Tam O'Shanters?

[Jeff Mc William]

Originally Posted by Alan O

I was not confining the question to just bonnets. Equally did they wear bimetal badges on glengarries or Tam O'Shanters?

Hi again Alan
Thanks for the pics, looks like a nice badge. In answer to your question ; I can only refer you again to the excellent publication by McKay & Anderson (p7) tho' I'm sure others on the forum can confirm this also. Regards. Jeff

HLI book McKay & Anderson.jpg

PS: Private pub 1977. ISBN 0 9505461 0 0 I'm sure you will be able to get a copy from Amazon.

This is mine which I have just posted in another post.

I believe it to be an NCO's badge. Stamped with No 7 so could be that a number were made and held by the WOs & Sgts Mess for use by the CSMs or similar. I wonder if any one knows or if I'm making a very wild assumption?

[jf42]

Originally Posted by Alan O

I was not confining the question to just bonnets. Equally did they wear bimetal badges on glengarries or Tam O'Shanters?

Weren't they all bonnets?

[Paul Spellman]

Originally Posted by jf42

Weren't they all bonnets?

The Bonnet is the Balmoral worn by the Highland Regt's i.e. those who wear Kilts, the Lowland Regt's such as the HLI who wore Trews (Trousers) tended not to adopt the Balmoral Bonnet Cap, there is also the Feather Bonnet which looks like a Bearskin type Guards hat which you should not confuse the Bonnet or Balmoral with.
Paul

[Paul Spellman]

Originally Posted by jamesmilitaria

This is mine which I have just posted in another post.

I believe it to be an NCO's badge. Stamped with No 7 so could be that a number were made and held by the WOs & Sgts Mess for use by the CSMs or similar. I wonder if any one knows or if I'm making a very wild assumption?

It could be that the no 7 stamped on your badge makes it a Regimental (PRI) item signed out on loan by a Piper or Drummer for example,rather than a issued item ? Regt's had to fund their own P&D's and Bands including Insignia.
Paul

[Alex Rice]

Originally Posted by jamesmilitaria

This is mine which I have just posted in another post.

I believe it to be an NCO's badge. Stamped with No 7 so could be that a number were made and held by the WOs & Sgts Mess for use by the CSMs or similar. I wonder if any one knows or if I'm making a very wild assumption?

No idea but it is a very nice example!

[jf42]

Originally Posted by Paul Spellman

The Bonnet is the Balmoral worn by the Highland Regt's i.e. those who wear Kilts, the Lowland Regt's such as the HLI who wore Trews (Trousers) tended not to adopt the Balmoral Bonnet Cap, there is also the Feather Bonnet which looks like a Bearskin type Guards hat which you should not confuse the Bonnet or Balmoral with.
Paul

Well, actually, not entirely so, Paul. 'Bonnet' is simply the Scottish word for 'cap', (rendered 'bunnet' when referring to the plain, tweed cap) so in Scottish parlance they are indeed all bonnets.

First, there was the traditional flat woollen bonnet (often referred to as 'Kilmarnock'- the Ayrshire town of Kilmarnock being a centre of bonnet manufacture. From this evolved the cocked Highland bonnet, with headband of dicing; a more cylindrical military headpiece, which appeared in the later C18th. This was transformed into the 'feathered' or 'feather bonnet' as it became mounted with increasingly profuse ostrich feathers in the Highland regiments (Worn without feathers, as a foraging cap or working dress, it was referred to as a 'hummle' bonnet which, when adopted later by the army at large, was officially called the 'Kilmarnock' bonnet; a source of continuing confusion).

The Glengarry bonnet was, ultimately, a folding version of the hummle bonnet developed for military use, named after but probably not designed by MacDonnell of Glengarry. 'Balmoral' meanwhile was the name coined in the mid-19th century for the traditional flat Scots bonnet with tourie (perhaps of finer quality and less voluminous crown), deriving from the Royal family's home on Deeside and the Highland dress they affected when in residence. It was later applied to the coloured flat bonnet adopted briefly by some Scottish troops early in WWI and then later as a dress item by the Scottish regiments after WWII, ultimately retained only by the Black Watch.

'Bonnet, Tam o' Shanter ' was the khaki version of the flat bonnet adopted by Scottish troops in WW1, replacing the coloured Balmoral. 'Tam o' Shanter' being a name given to the traditional flat bonnet in the C19th after the eponymous hero of Robert Burns poem- both Tam and Rab being natives of Alloway, in Ayrshire, but a few miles to the southwest of Kilmarnock. You can see a geographical theme developing here

Oh, and it's best never to refer to the HLI as 'a Lowland regiment', even if..... it's complicated. There is a clue in the name.

Suffice it to say that, through several incarnations, over the best part of 130 years, having been re-categorised as trousered Light infantry in 1809, the Regiment gradually recovered their Highland status, culminating in being authorised to resume wearing the kilt of 'Mackenzie' tartan in 1947- only to be amalgamated eight years later and- after a final struggle- become a trewsered member of the Lowland Brigade, bearing the title 'Royal Highland Fusiliers.' (Now 2 SCOTS). As I said- complicated.

[Paul Spellman]

Originally Posted by jf42

Well, actually, not entirely so, Paul. 'Bonnet' is simply the Scottish word for 'cap', (rendered 'bunnet' when referring to the plain, tweed cap) so in Scottish parlance they are indeed all bonnets.

First, there was the traditional flat woollen bonnet (often referred to as 'Kilmarnock'- the Ayrshire town of Kilmarnock being a centre of bonnet manufacture. From this evolved the cocked Highland bonnet, with headband of dicing; a more cylindrical military headpiece, which appeared in the later C18th. This was transformed into the 'feathered' or 'feather bonnet' as it became mounted with increasingly profuse ostrich feathers in the Highland regiments (Worn without feathers, as a foraging cap or working dress, it was referred to as a 'hummle' bonnet which, when adopted later by the army at large, was officially called the 'Kilmarnock' bonnet; a source of continuing confusion).

The Glengarry bonnet was, ultimately, a folding version of the hummle bonnet developed for military use, named after but probably not designed by MacDonnell of Glengarry. 'Balmoral' meanwhile was the name coined in the mid-19th century for the traditional flat Scots bonnet with tourie (perhaps of finer quality and less voluminous crown), deriving from the Royal family's home on Deeside and the Highland dress they affected when in residence. It was later applied to the coloured flat bonnet adopted briefly by some Scottish troops early in WWI and then later as a dress item by the Scottish regiments after WWII, ultimately retained only by the Black Watch.

'Bonnet, Tam o' Shanter ' was the khaki version of the flat bonnet adopted by Scottish troops in WW1, replacing the coloured Balmoral. 'Tam o' Shanter' being a name given to the traditional flat bonnet in the C19th after the eponymous hero of Robert Burns poem- both Tam and Rab being natives of Alloway, in Ayrshire, but a few miles to the southwest of Kilmarnock. You can see a geographical theme developing here

Oh, and it's best never to refer to the HLI as 'a Lowland regiment', even if..... it's complicated. There is a clue in the name.

Suffice it to say that, through several incarnations, over the best part of 130 years, having been re-categorised as trousered Light infantry in 1809, the Regiment gradually recovered their Highland status, culminating in being authorised to resume wearing the kilt of 'Mackenzie' tartan in 1947- only to be amalgamated eight years later and- after a final struggle- become a trewsered member of the Lowland Brigade, bearing the title 'Royal Highland Fusiliers.' (Now 2 SCOTS). As I said- complicated.

Yes, their status complicated as you say, not forgetting they recruited from Glasgow in the Lowlands and served with the Lowland Brigade but as you say they recovered their Highland status though only for a short period which was something I did not know so thank you
I will add when I served attached with the Black Watch there was Bonnets though I was only issued a TOS not being required to be Kilted, Also attached to the Royal Scots, I got a Glengarry and TOS whilst with them, I do not recall at any time the TOS, Glengarry being referred to as a Bonnet.

Paul

[jf42]

I see what you're saying, Paul. On a daily basis, the Glengarry and TOS might be referred to as such, simply and economically, as befits army parlance, but nonetheless they were all bonnets, rather than caps or hats, say. The Feather Bonnet was just that, but, again, more economically, perhaps, referred to as 'Bonnet'- though I never heard that in my time as a son of the Regiment.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by jamesmilitaria

This is mine which I have just posted in another post.

I believe it to be an NCO's badge. Stamped with No 7 so could be that a number were made and held by the WOs & Sgts Mess for use by the CSMs or similar. I wonder if any one knows or if I'm making a very wild assumption?

It is indeed a 'staff badge' James, as worn in undress head gear by officers and (originally) battalion HQ SNCOs. I have explained its origin in your other thread.