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  #16  
Old 06-08-17, 10:35 AM
leigh kitchen leigh kitchen is offline
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Have you any reference re. the use of enamelled badges by instructors only please? (I'm not challenging what you say, just interested).
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  #17  
Old 06-08-17, 02:30 PM
BROOKIES BROOKIES is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancer 17 View Post
The blue and white enamel crossed flags were worn by signals instructors and the men's trade qualification badge is die stamped copper.

We have an example in the Sigs Museum and it has the name of the wearer, however I don't have this detail at home. I hope that helps.

Regards

Phil.
Image for reference as think this is it.

Ta

Jonathan

DSC03708 (1).JPGDSC03711 (1).JPGDSC03713 (1).JPG
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  #18  
Old 06-08-17, 02:58 PM
leigh kitchen leigh kitchen is offline
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Thanks, I have one set of the enamelled & a couple of the plain brass / gilding metal though not other versions used by the British army in white metal, blackenedetal etc.
There was a school of thought that the enamelled might be early examples, private purchase, I'm not sure whether the issue was ever resolved in debates on forum.
Ive not heard of the instructors explanation.
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  #19  
Old 06-08-17, 06:21 PM
NorthStafford NorthStafford is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackhr View Post
Thanks Keith for your reply but what would the guys in the photo be doing ,the reason I ask is I have come across a flag and just wanted to know what its purpose was.

Cheers
I would imagine that they're training/practising semaphore skills.
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  #20  
Old 06-08-17, 09:04 PM
Jackhr Jackhr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthStafford View Post
I would imagine that they're training/practising semaphore skills.
Thanks for your reply.
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  #21  
Old 07-08-17, 02:49 AM
Lancer 17 Lancer 17 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leigh kitchen View Post
Have you any reference re. the use of enamelled badges by instructors only please? (I'm not challenging what you say, just interested).
Hi Leigh,

Sorry no I don't but will look in the library at the Sigs Museum when Im there next probably Tuesday next week.

Regards

Phil.
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  #22  
Old 07-08-17, 07:12 AM
leigh kitchen leigh kitchen is offline
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Thanks you, it would be good to know more about the enamelled (albeit from the comfort of my armchair while you're putting the effort in).
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  #23  
Old 07-08-17, 07:59 AM
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fairlie63 fairlie63 is offline
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The example in the RASigs Museum belonged to the collection of MAJ EJ Millett MBE, and was presented to the Signals Museum in 1997 by Mr Haydn Vesty according to the interpretation on the display.

EJ Millett was an officer of the Australian Army Ordnance Corps and is unlikely to have ever worn this badge.

It was never an issue badge in the Australian army, it was privately purchased by those who wore it and was not restricted to instructors at LHQ School of Signals. I have a photograph of a uniform of a member of an AIF trench mortar battery 1917-19 which is still in the possession of the family and which bears this badge. I also have a black and white photo of members of Tasmania L of C Area Signals late 1942 or early 1943 in which one corporal who appears to wear a miniature Merchant Navy or RN colour patch, also seems to have the enamelled crossed flags above his chevrons on the right arm.

In short, anybody in the Australian army who wore this badge did so unofficially and entirely at his own expense (or perhaps that of regimental or canteen funds).

Keith
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  #24  
Old 07-08-17, 02:25 PM
green_jas green_jas is offline
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This picture was on another thread but I believe this is the crossed enamel flag you are speaking about. Upon reading the information on the card it says that the two badges (Enamel crossed flag and Enamel round badge) were worn during WW2?? I was wondering if perhaps this card has the wrong period and it should maybe read WW1??? The round badge I have seen another photo and it says Commonwealth Signals School AIF. This sounds like WW1???any thoughts? I also saw one of those enamel round badges sell at a Nobles Numismatics auction and on the rear it was named to a WW1 Signals soldier.
Does anyone have one of these? and know more information about it?

Thanks,
Jas
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  #25  
Old 26-08-17, 06:33 AM
Lancer 17 Lancer 17 is offline
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Hello all

Well I made it to the Sigs Museum this week and have looked up the "Book of Words"

Again I'm quoting from Signals and Signallers Badges in the Australian Army 1870 to 2006 by Major Graham Donley RFD (Ret'd). This is a manuscript in limited edition and has not been published generally, a copy is held by the museum's library. This states in parts.

"The flags actually used by the Australian Army Signals were:
1 Dark blue, for use against a light background.
2 White, with a central blue stripe down its length (said to differentiate it from a white flag of surrender) for use against a dark background"

"They could be used individually to send Morse code or jointly in like pairs for Semaphore. The dark blue and white flags were not to be used as a pair."

REFERENCE: Training Manual - Signals, 1907, Page 9.".


Chapter 2 is wholly about Signalling Badges and provides information in regard to Pre Federation (ie pre 1901) , Colonial forces as well as the Australian Army.

"Signallers.
This is the trade quoted in the relevant references.
The badge to indicate qualified Signaller of All Arms was the crossed flags.
Assistant instructors in Signals also wore it over their chevrons. Chevrons were worn on the right upper arm only during this period.
The shape of the flags changed slightly over the years, but the badge remained easily identifiable for what it was.
The metal crossed flags badges were 1 13/16 inches (4.6CM) high and the cloth type 2 3/8 inches, (5.6CM) high."

"From 1902 to circa 1905, they were produced in:

1 Embroidered silver and embroidered silk for the New Slouth Wales Lancers.
2 Embroidered gold on green, worsted yellow on green and worsted red on khaki for the 1st Australian Horse.
3 Silk for the New South Wales Mounted Rifles.
4 Worsted and silk for the New South Wales Artillery.
5 Worsted and gold for the New South Wales Engineers.
6 Silk for the New South Wales Infantry Regiments.
7 Silk for the 18th Light Horse (West Australian Mounted Infantry)
8 Gold embroidered for the Royal Australian Artillery, and
9 Silver embroidered or worsted for the West Australian Infantry."

"Reference: Various Government Gazettes."

"In 1906, they were produced in in gold or silver bullion wire with the flags in blue, and white with a central blue stripe and shaped as per the metal badge."

"A signaller, if a Colour Sergeant wore the signallers badge on the left arm, as the Colour Sergeants badge comprising crossed flags was worn on the right arm.
Reference: Standing Orders for Dress and Clothing Military Forces of the Commonwealth, Part 111, 1906"

"In 1907, white and yellow worsted crossed flags badges appeared."

"There also exists a very attractive badge of this shape, but in brass and blue and white enamel. No official references can be located for this badge, which may have been privately purchased by those who wore them."

"The example that I have studied is of the same general dimensions (as the metal badge) but there is a different angle in the crossed poles and two of the four fixing lugs do not match."


So there you have it, I hope that this helps.

Regards


Phil.

Last edited by Lancer 17; 27-08-17 at 07:51 AM.
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  #26  
Old 26-08-17, 07:53 AM
Jackhr Jackhr is offline
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Thanks Phil that is great as I have a flag in the collection and was wondering about it.

Jack
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  #27  
Old 20-10-17, 06:53 AM
Lancer 17 Lancer 17 is offline
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G'day jack

Here's a follow on to the above lengthy post.

I'm pleased to say that I have now acquired a pair of the blue and white enamel flags from one of my good contacts in the UK and he has sent me the relevant page from the trade badge book by Edwards & Langley.

No 8 refers to the crossed flags for "TELEGRAPHIST RE and QUALIFIED SIGNALLER and also ASSISTANT INSTRUCTOR IN SIGNALLING.

This confirms "Signal Regulations 1914" confirms the use of the blue flags against light back grounds and the white with blue stripe against dark back grounds.

And states that "it was originally a prize badge and an OA of1887 awarded it, and the sum of fifteen shillings (75p) per annum, as a bonus to each man qualifying."

It further states that "The early metal versions had coloured enamel flags (8A), a very handsome badge". Others were all brass, (8B) or white metal for light infantry or blackened brass for rifle regiments.

I hope that this helps.

Regards

Phil.

Last edited by Lancer 17; 20-10-17 at 07:01 AM.
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  #28  
Old 21-10-17, 10:37 PM
grumpy grumpy is offline
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I am the Langley part of Edwards and Langley.

The enamelled versions have always intrigued me, as there has never been found an official reference to issue.

My opinion [for what it is worth] is driven by 80 years observation of Treasury, War Office and Defence Ministry parsimony. It is that there was never any need to spend good money on an enamelled version, so good money was not spent. This is an example of Inherent Military Probability, and Occam's Razor.

I believe the enamelled badges are ALL private or unit purchase, a vanity item. There is no reference to them in RACD ledgers, Clothing Regs, Vocabs or COSA. It remains for the believers to offer proof, which certainly does not lie in our book of Proficiency Badges, written all of 33 years ago.

As ever, I could be convinced by authoratative evidence.
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  #29  
Old 22-10-17, 05:20 AM
Lancer 17 Lancer 17 is offline
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G'day Grumpy

Thanks for joining the conversation.

Private purchase was the conclusion drawn out here as noted in my previous post above.

I collect signals badges as my father served in sigs in New Guinea during WW2. He had previously been a "ham" operator prior to being married so was already mores proficient. He being a sig is the reason that I volunteer at the sigs museum in Melbourne.

Pm sent Grumpy.

Regards

Phil.
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  #30  
Old 22-10-17, 08:53 PM
Jackhr Jackhr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancer 17 View Post
G'day jack

Here's a follow on to the above lengthy post.

I'm pleased to say that I have now acquired a pair of the blue and white enamel flags from one of my good contacts in the UK and he has sent me the relevant page from the trade badge book by Edwards & Langley.

No 8 refers to the crossed flags for "TELEGRAPHIST RE and QUALIFIED SIGNALLER and also ASSISTANT INSTRUCTOR IN SIGNALLING.

This confirms "Signal Regulations 1914" confirms the use of the blue flags against light back grounds and the white with blue stripe against dark back grounds.

And states that "it was originally a prize badge and an OA of1887 awarded it, and the sum of fifteen shillings (75p) per annum, as a bonus to each man qualifying."

It further states that "The early metal versions had coloured enamel flags (8A), a very handsome badge". Others were all brass, (8B) or white metal for light infantry or blackened brass for rifle regiments.

I hope that this helps.

Regards

Phil.
Thanks Phil for the follow up all very interesting reading.

Cheers

PS nobody has a spare enamel badge they would care to sell me
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